JordanAng420
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Oh my goodness, here we go...
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Lena
I question all things.
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I'm not trying to start anything. I just don't appreciate the implication that I'm just mindlessly regurgitating information from a care sheet. That's all.
Anyway, my personal opinion, why push the limits on something you don't know 100%.. When there's something easier and proven, readily available?
That's all I'm gonna say. :lipsrsealed2:
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kevinstpeter
Guest
I am in no way an expert but here is my take.
The sand that make up deserts is worn by nature and smooth, spherical, also smaller in grain size.
The sand found in pet stores is man made, large jagged peices.
Smooth sand, if ingested, could slide through the digestive system of the animal while jagged sand would have a MUCH greater chance getting caught on the wall of the intestine and connecting like puzzle peices.
The sand that make up deserts is worn by nature and smooth, spherical, also smaller in grain size.
The sand found in pet stores is man made, large jagged peices.
Smooth sand, if ingested, could slide through the digestive system of the animal while jagged sand would have a MUCH greater chance getting caught on the wall of the intestine and connecting like puzzle peices.
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henward
Guest
Ok
that makes sense, in nature they are ground down to round smooth shapes
the risk is of course present with stuff that are man made
how about BARK?
you know your average garden bark?
that makes sense, in nature they are ground down to round smooth shapes
the risk is of course present with stuff that are man made
how about BARK?
you know your average garden bark?
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henward
Guest
Or Clay? can you use clay? say some stones and clay to have a nice type of flooring?
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henward
Guest
or how about bare glass.
i mean you guys put tiles
tiles are just as smooth as glass.
tiles would not provide any claw grinding properties.
i mean you guys put tiles
tiles are just as smooth as glass.
tiles would not provide any claw grinding properties.
Riyo
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Actually, you can get textured tile..the stuff I have is slate and they can grip it just fine. Smooth tile isn't recommended.
THE WHISPERER
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this is got me curious, and I would love to learn something new here. What primary problems or sicknesses cause sand to impact?
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stayahead
Guest
Here's a picture of my leo on "natural stone" tile, which is used for kitchen floors etc. It has a rough texture to it, as you can see, so it looks very natural, like rock or stone. I think its brilliant and much better than sand or paper tile.
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henward
Guest
yeah, i think im gonna go with either a natural looking tile like material or slate rocks and stones
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Alliemac
Guest
There is natural looking textured tile in the pictures I posted.....
I think you also have to consider that your gecko is in captivity and therefore has a different set of daily activities. In the wild all of their daily activities revolve around survival. In a tank they don't have to worry about their own survival and for lack of a better description life is probably boring and they could do things like eat substrate for lack of anything better to do.
Equate it to 2 toddlers....one in a room full of toys and one in the same room without...which one is more likely to get into something they shouldn't? Both have outlets, furniture that can topple, a tv to mess with, objects to throw but it's the toddler in the empty room that will find them first for lack of other concerns like toys.
Probably not the best analogy ever but the point is these animals are not in the wild and their home should not necessarily reflect the exact habitat and conditions they encounter in the wild. We don't chase them around in predator costumes. We offer calcium in a dish. We feed at "feeding time" and offer water in a dish all day long. We maintain their temperatures artificially, chose their hiding places, simulate a humid area for shedding and enclose them in glass or plastic walls for their safety. Why is a low risk substrate such a stretch??
For the record I'm not against loose substrate. I use it for my snake and love the humidity it holds for him. But I also do what I think is safest for the animal first and decorate around that.
I think you also have to consider that your gecko is in captivity and therefore has a different set of daily activities. In the wild all of their daily activities revolve around survival. In a tank they don't have to worry about their own survival and for lack of a better description life is probably boring and they could do things like eat substrate for lack of anything better to do.
Equate it to 2 toddlers....one in a room full of toys and one in the same room without...which one is more likely to get into something they shouldn't? Both have outlets, furniture that can topple, a tv to mess with, objects to throw but it's the toddler in the empty room that will find them first for lack of other concerns like toys.
Probably not the best analogy ever but the point is these animals are not in the wild and their home should not necessarily reflect the exact habitat and conditions they encounter in the wild. We don't chase them around in predator costumes. We offer calcium in a dish. We feed at "feeding time" and offer water in a dish all day long. We maintain their temperatures artificially, chose their hiding places, simulate a humid area for shedding and enclose them in glass or plastic walls for their safety. Why is a low risk substrate such a stretch??
For the record I'm not against loose substrate. I use it for my snake and love the humidity it holds for him. But I also do what I think is safest for the animal first and decorate around that.
Gregg M
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Hey Rick, since you asked...
Sand does not impact leopard geckos... What causes impaction is lack of proper husbandry... Dehydration, inadequate heating, poor supplementation, parasite load, and other stress will all compromise the digestive tract and other important systems in reptiles... These are primary issues that can lead to impaction...
A healthy, properly cared for leopard gecko will not become impacted from natural sand particles... A healthy leo can consume and easily pass sand...
Also, sand from their area is not perfectly round tiny grains... I am not sure where people are pulling their info from...
I can assure you that there are more than just a handful of large scale breeders who use sand as a substrate and have for many years... I am sure some of the "old school" breeders on this site can back that up... I will not mention the names of the breeders I know of that use sand... If they want to get in on this they can... I highly doubt they will because of the ignorant views on sand being applied as a substrate...
I do not use sand as a substrate but not out of fear of impaction... I too used to be against sand but after being properly educated on the subject and examining wet collections and stomach contents in the museum of natural history in NYC and Washington DC, I know that sand and soil particle intake is 100% natural and not lethal when they are in proper conditions...
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Lena
I question all things.
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Gregg, I feel you speak too definitively on the matter. Last I checked you're not the 'sand authority'.
Impaction is a real risk, there's evidence of it. Whether it is as great a risk as some argue is up for debate.
Bottom line is, as I said earlier, leopard geckos do not live in sand boxes.. I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with finding that loophole to use particle substrates..
If you choose to use sand, that's your choice. :main_rolleyes: Just know this isn't a popular choice, especially among breeders.. Just a little food for thought.
Impaction is a real risk, there's evidence of it. Whether it is as great a risk as some argue is up for debate.
Bottom line is, as I said earlier, leopard geckos do not live in sand boxes.. I'm not sure why people are so obsessed with finding that loophole to use particle substrates..
If you choose to use sand, that's your choice. :main_rolleyes: Just know this isn't a popular choice, especially among breeders.. Just a little food for thought.
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Gregg M
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World authority I never claimed to be... But I have been keeping these reptiles sucessfully longer than you have been alive... I speak from my experience and actual research, not paranoia brought on by inexpeienced keepers who read this info on the internet...
Sure, it is a real risk to leos that are being kept in sub-par condtions... All the evidence ever brought into the debate is usually from inexperience keepers who are not keeping their leos properly to begin with...
Thats the bottom line base on what??? Some areas where they live and hunt are quite comparable to a sand box... Just ask anyone who has been in a sand storm in any arid region of the world... Infact, why not look at soil types in the middle east??? Its quite easy to google that info... Maybe do some actual research and find your anawers there instead of regurgitating unfounded material... No one is looking for a loophole on particle substrates... Its putting facts in place of fiction...
Did you totally skip over the paragraph where I mentioned that some of the large scale breeders do infact use sand for leos??? The ones who do not use sand have reasons for not that have nothing to do with fear of impaction...
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Some good answers and opinions.
yes Leo's come form a sandy ,dusty habitat.
But your forgetting one major thing. Your Leo's are not wild Leo's they are captive bred. They do not have the instincts or behavioral patterns that their wild counterparts do. They were born in boxes and live in boxes.
They have no clue of the outside world or their wild relatives habitat so why try to mimic that?.
Instead of wanting your enclosure to look pretty or attractive you should be thinking of your geckos health first and foremost. Thats what really matters.
I do believe in experience over most of the information out there and that some here have been doing this for many years and never had a case of impaction. But just becouse it hasn't happend dosnt mean it won't. Its a provan fact that gut impaction due to sand or loose substrate ingestion is a big problem. Yes some cases are worsened by dehydration but thats not always the case.
If you really insist on a natural looking inclosure for your sake then use slate/tile. Keep it practical, keep it safe.
Just my 2 c
yes Leo's come form a sandy ,dusty habitat.
But your forgetting one major thing. Your Leo's are not wild Leo's they are captive bred. They do not have the instincts or behavioral patterns that their wild counterparts do. They were born in boxes and live in boxes.
They have no clue of the outside world or their wild relatives habitat so why try to mimic that?.
Instead of wanting your enclosure to look pretty or attractive you should be thinking of your geckos health first and foremost. Thats what really matters.
I do believe in experience over most of the information out there and that some here have been doing this for many years and never had a case of impaction. But just becouse it hasn't happend dosnt mean it won't. Its a provan fact that gut impaction due to sand or loose substrate ingestion is a big problem. Yes some cases are worsened by dehydration but thats not always the case.
If you really insist on a natural looking inclosure for your sake then use slate/tile. Keep it practical, keep it safe.
Just my 2 c
Gregg M
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I "could" get killed in a car accident... Does this mean I should stop driving???
I am done beating a dead horse... Especially one where the seems to be a clear lack of understanding and paranoia attached to it...
Remember, paper towels are not replacements for proper husbandry... I would rather play it right than play it safe...
I am done beating a dead horse... Especially one where the seems to be a clear lack of understanding and paranoia attached to it...
Remember, paper towels are not replacements for proper husbandry... I would rather play it right than play it safe...
Gregg M
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Larry,
Try reading the thread in its entirety... They do not live solely on hard packed clay... Even in the montain areas there is SAND.... There is sand all over their environment...
Your not wrong Gregg and i see your point,
it is not as common as most think and most times it occurs due to several factors.
I was mostly trying to get across why there was such a "need" to have a natural wild looking enclosure when the geckos we have are captive bred.
Im a good friend with a very well known and celebrated breeder here who has been breeding reptiles for 28 years. He uses a sand/peat moss mix as substrate and has never had a case of impaction.
it is not as common as most think and most times it occurs due to several factors.
I was mostly trying to get across why there was such a "need" to have a natural wild looking enclosure when the geckos we have are captive bred.
Im a good friend with a very well known and celebrated breeder here who has been breeding reptiles for 28 years. He uses a sand/peat moss mix as substrate and has never had a case of impaction.
Gregg M
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Thats my point exactly brother...
Experience and actual knowlede trumps paranoid care sheets any day... LOL:main_laugh::main_thumbsup:
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