Myth or truth - cant be

[Yamori]

lol there are so many threads about this and they all seem to end the same.
The fear of impaction is has gotten out of hand i think. its like propaganda, like the myths of mealworms eating their way out of your geckos....lol its laughable. but they all start the same way.

At the end of the day you have to make a decision but just listen to the facts, listen to those on here that do have the experience. They have no reason BS(pardon my french)

So, if you do decided to use sand just make sure all their needs are met- heat,lighting, hydration,food, calcium and vitamins.

The point i was trying to make before was how alarming it is, the reason most people want a natural wild looking enclosure is just for a bit of eye candy and are not really thinking of their animals.

Well, thats enough from me. Peace

 

[BettaDragon]

I see some valid points on both sides. Really if we followed the care sheets we'd be chopping heads off our feeders all day. Now I used sand for years because I followed the care sheets back before I knew there was this awesome forum. I never had any health problems with the geckos at all. However cleaning the sand was difficult because feeders escaped and burrowed in it, and the dust got everywhere. I switched to repticarpet because I was fed up with it. My geckos nails got caught on that all the time so I switched to paper towels. Then I came to the forum and heard all about the sand impaction problems. I got kinda scared that I hurt my guys when they were younger by keeping them on sand and I got pretty paranoid. I had to keep reminding myself though that I used it for years with no incident. Maybe I was lucky, I dunno. My personal opinion is that sand can be used for leos but I think it should only be used by experienced keepers that know exactly what they're doing. There's a lot of bad info out there, especially on the care sheets, and inexperienced keepers make a lot of mistakes, it's part of learning. If those common beginner mistakes are made and there's sand involved, I think that's a sure recipe for impaction. I still don't like sand very much because of how hard it is to clean and the fact it's a mess. We can't deny that there are sand impaction problems. They exist, there's proof. However, if you feel confident enough that you know exactly what you're doing and you have the healthiest geckos, it would probably work.

 

[KelliH]

We've been having this same debate since the beginning of internet gecko forums LOL. I personally kept leopard gecko adults on playsand for years and never had any impaction issues. Just a really dusty gecko room! For those that are concerned about impaction, what substrate do you use in your humid hides?

 

[Lena]

Paper towel.

World authority I never claimed to be... But I have been keeping these reptiles sucessfully longer than you have been alive... I speak from my experience and actual research, not paranoia brought on by inexpeienced keepers who read this info on the internet...

I don't think arrogance comes with age.

Sometimes, Gregg, I must be honest, it seems like you just want to pick a fight.

I made my points, you're doing little more than stating yours over and over again. :main_rolleyes:

 

[Lena]

And furthermore, I don't believe you have some kind of secret access to information that I nor anyone else couldn't look up on google or wikipedia, or at a museum. Your so-called research is about as real as my so-called paranoia.

Please, let me know when you fly to Pakistan and bring back soil samples.

It's pretentious and arrogant to just wave your age and "experience" around in other people's faces.

 

[Gregg M]

And furthermore, I don't believe you have some kind of secret access to information that I nor anyone else couldn't look up on google or wikipedia, or at a museum. Your so-called research is about as real as my so-called paranoia.

Please, let me know when you fly to Pakistan and bring back soil samples.

It's pretentious and arrogant to just wave your age and "experience" around in other people's faces.

:main_rolleyes:
Ok, like I said earlier, I had/have access to museum wet collections in two natural history museums... Access that you do not have and most likely never get granted to you... It is not secret information but it is not accessable to the general public... I have examined stomach contents, whole animals and pre-disected specimens... Every gut sample had a fair amount of SAND in it plus solfigidae, arachnidae (spiders and scorpions) and other insect matter... Strangely enough no rodent materiel...

As far as soil sample go, I guess my friend Matt who is stationed in the Afgahnastan can send me something he shook out of his boot... But to find out the soil type in leopard gecko habitat is as easy as doing a google search... Not a google search that brings you to a paranoid care sheet...
If you really need me to do the work for you, I guess I can... Let me know...:main_thumbsup:

 

[Lena]

:main_rolleyes:
Ok, like I said earlier, I had/have access to museum wet collections in two natural history museums... Access that you do not have and most likely never get granted to you... It is not secret information but it is not accessable to the general public... I have examined stomach contents, whole animals and pre-disected specimens... Every gut sample had a fair amount of SAND in it plus solfigidae, arachnidae (spiders and scorpions) and other insect matter... Strangely enough no rodent materiel...

As far as soil sample go, I guess my friend Matt who is stationed in the Afgahnastan can send me something he shook out of his boot... But to find out the soil type in leopard gecko habitat is as easy as doing a google search... Not a google search that brings you to a paranoid care sheet...
If you really need me to do the work for you, I guess I can... Let me know...:main_thumbsup:

:main_laugh: Like I said. Arrogant and pretentious. Just what we need more of in this world. Ooh, and we pulled a "friend in the military" card, too. Getting a little desperate, aren't we? :main_thumbsup:

Anyway, here's another thought.. Wouldn't you think that there are a lot of things that leopard geckos experience in the wild that aren't exactly healthy, or the best for them? Captive bred animals, while I ADMIT can't say for sure as far as leos go, often surpass the life expectancy of their wild counterparts.. And these are people's pets, their hobbies we're talking about. Don't you think that, even if they do encounter some of these things in the wild, they're health-wise better off without them?

I mean, how often do you hear about people feeding their dogs rotten carrion? Something their ancestors probably ate regularly in the wild?

 

[KelliH]

If you guys can't debate respectfully, I am closing this thread. In the end it all boils down to personal choice. I keep my animals the way I think works best for me/them - you keep your animals the way you choose to do so.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

ok so it boils down to do whatever you feel is best for your leos. educate yourself and make up your own mind.

Gregg has an air of arrogance to him for sure. But he wouldn't be Don Gecko without it.

There are my 2 cents take it or leave it.

 

[ReptileMan27]

The whole sand thing is getting so old. This whole debate is dumb because the wild and captivity are two totally different things. Leos could very well die from impaction in the wild, who knows but regardless this is NOT THE WILD. Putting leos in cages,tubs, etc.. IS NOT NATURAL. The whole, "the live on it in the wild" crap is so old. In captivity we can do things to keep are leos safe from stuff they would face in the wild and in return they live longer in captivity. I suppose maybe I should put some snakes or other natural predators in my cage because it "natural" LMAO. I see no reason to poetentially risk any of my leos life over something as dumb as make there cage look nicer.

 

[Lena]

The whole sand thing is getting so old. This whole debate is dumb because the wild and captivity are two totally different things. Leos could very well die from impaction in the wild, who knows but regardless this is NOT THE WILD. Putting leos in cages,tubs, etc.. IS NOT NATURAL. The whole, "the live on it in the wild" crap is so old. In captivity we can do things to keep are leos safe from stuff they would face in the wild and in return they live longer in captivity. I suppose maybe I should put some snakes or other natural predators in my cage because it "natural" LMAO. I see no reason to poetentially risk any of my leos life over something as dumb as make there cage look nicer.

Very well put. :main_yes:

 

[Gregg M]

Anyway, here's another thought.. Wouldn't you think that there are a lot of things that leopard geckos experience in the wild that aren't exactly healthy, or the best for them? Captive bred animals, while I ADMIT can't say for sure as far as leos go, often surpass the life expectancy of their wild counterparts.. And these are people's pets, their hobbies we're talking about. Don't you think that, even if they do encounter some of these things in the wild, they're health-wise better off without them?

I mean, how often do you hear about people feeding their dogs rotten carrion? Something their ancestors probably ate regularly in the wild?

So you are in fact saying that leopard geckos are better off in our care??? So the hundreds of thousands of years evolving to thirve in their environment means nothing??? :main_laugh::main_laugh::main_laugh:

The fact is is that leopard geckos thrive in their natural habitat... If their environment was detrimental to their health, they would not thrive as a species... Use your head for two seconds instead of trying to prove me wrong... You want to be right so bad, you are bypassing good information...

As far as my military friend goes that was said jokingly... I would never ask him to send a sample because that would be illegal...:main_rolleyes:

Another thing you seem to over look is how many leos actually live to be 20 years old in captivity??? I bet not even 30% of the leos produced in the US make it past 4 years old... If you think about the THOUSANDS of leos produced each year in captivity 30% would be a significant amount of leos...

Also, incase you did not know, reptiles on average, take 2 times longer to reach sexual maturity in the wild than they can in captivity... Leos can reach maturity in a year in captivity... Some subspecies take two years or more to reach maturity in captivity... I can not tell you how many times I have seen this.. "Leos only live like 3 or 4 years in the wild"... That is rediculous... With a limited amout of offspring that make it to breeding size those numbers would surely spell the end of a species... Each female would only have one, maybe two seasons before death... Thats silly...

Also, stop bringing domesticated companion animals into reptile related topics... The two can not be compared...

If you consider the truth to be arrogant and pretentious, so be it...

 

[BettaDragon]

Gregg, has anyone told you, you act like Dr. House? Just a random off topic question. You act like him a lot and your names are both Greg. Coincidence?

Arrogance or not, there are some good points on both sides but it really does come down to personal preference. I always do what I think is best for my leos regardless of what any care sheet or person says. I'm the one that handles my leos and knows them better than anyone else. I base my opinions off of my own experiences and not the experiences of others. If I'm totally not sure I'll ask questions but I always do things based on gut instinct. Maybe not the smartest thing to do but it tends to make me be right many more times than wrong.

 

[Lena]

So you are in fact saying that leopard geckos are better off in our care??? So the hundreds of thousands of years evolving to thirve in their environment means nothing??? :main_laugh::main_laugh::main_laugh:

:main_laugh: :main_laugh: :main_laugh: No, I'm not! I'm saying that living in the wild and living in captivity are two totally different things. I think Jason hit the nail on the head.

The fact is is that leopard geckos thrive in their natural habitat... If their environment was detrimental to their health, they would not thrive as a species... Use your head for two seconds instead of trying to prove me wrong... You want to be right so bad, you are bypassing good information...

I think YOU'RE the one who wants to be right so badly. I'm simply argueing my point. I'm not the one who started making it personal, mister "I'm 33 so I must know everything!" "I have access to museum specimens!"

Thriving in terms of population, yes. We should be looking at this on a more individual level it as people don't usually own thousands upon thousands of geckos. And I also must stress again that seperation between captive and wild!

Another thing you seem to over look is how many leos actually live to be 20 years old in captivity??? I bet not even 30% of the leos produced in the US make it past 4 years old... If you think about the THOUSANDS of leos produced each year in captivity 30% would be a significant amount of leos...

Think of how many of those leos are sold in chains to uninformed, inexperienced owners.. Then consider how many succumb to diseases, parasites, and defects!

Also, incase you did not know, reptiles on average, take 2 times longer to reach sexual maturity in the wild than they can in captivity... Leos can reach maturity in a year in captivity... Some subspecies take two years or more to reach maturity in captivity... I can not tell you how many times I have seen this.. "Leos only live like 3 or 4 years in the wild"... That is rediculous... With a limited amout of offspring that make it to breeding size those numbers would surely spell the end of a species... Each female would only have one, maybe two seasons before death... Thats silly...

How doesn't this support my argument for the difference between captive and wild life?

Also, stop bringing domesticated companion animals into reptile related topics... The two can not be compared...

I strongly disagree! Look at how much leopard geckos have changed from their wild counterparts. And they'll only continue to change as they're bred.. How do you think dogs came to be? Given it was many, many years.. But the same basic thing is still occurring!

If you consider the truth to be arrogant and pretentious, so be it...

You have a WARPED idea of truth, my friend. :main_rolleyes:

 

[KelliH]

Closing this thread now.:main_rolleyes: