New "Breeders" who don't know what they are getting into...

[Friedbread]

I would like to add that some of the breeders that are breeding now need to be more selective and maybe start culling. I know many think that is mean but better then living a sad life and dying in a painful way.

It's not that less "desirable" geckos need to be culled. The overproduction of babies in the first place is what needs to be reduced. It is disgusting to me to think of overproducing animals so that you can select the prettiest ones and then eliminate the "bi-products" of a project through culling.

 

[T-ReXx]

It's not that less "desirable" geckos need to be culled. The overproduction of babies in the first place is what needs to be reduced. It is disgusting to me to think of overproducing animals so that you can select the prettiest ones and then eliminate the "bi-products" of a project through culling.

I agree, though there are times when I feel that culling is necessary. When quality of life is an issue, for one. And of course there is the enigma factor, but I won't get into that atm. I think more selective breeding is what is necessary. Instead of breeding a nice male to multiple average females in order to get a larger percentage of higher grade animals we should be breeding that nice male to fewer equally nice females and be content with a smaller amount of potentially way above average animals. There are a few "big breeders" (I won't mention names) who I feel are a big part of the root of this problem. It's the large amounts of whole saled "pet store quality" animals and the lack of restraint/control in breeding these animals that is adding a large percentage to the market problem.

 

[LizMarie]

I have to say that I have made lots of money breeding out of my moms basement back in the day...

There is money to be made in breeding leos, you just need to be smart about it and refine the morphs you like instead of jumping on the bandwagon to produce the next new craze just because you might make some money...
Producing a cutting edge morph is not for everyone... I am not big on cutting edge morphs... I just want to produce super nice looking animals...

To be honest, in my opinion, there is nothing nicer than a well refined line of Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail like Hiss, JMG, TUG, and a few others produce... They took a cool existing morph and made it much nicer... The market may be flooded with SHTCTBs but the market is NOT flooded with really nice ones... The really nice ones will hold their value year after year...

I agree..

I have to say that I have made lots of money breeding out of my moms basement back in the day..

you should have told me this before because I might have been able to pay for my school books with gecko money, lmao.

I've never really had the desire to breed and the fact that I can't seem to get a hang on genetics doesn't help so who am I to discourage anyone? If I ever get the itch to breed I'm working with Mack Snows and Murphy Patternless Maybe not the most amazing gecko to some but two of the best in my eyes

 

[robin]

I agree, though there are times when I feel that culling is necessary. When quality of life is an issue, for one. And of course there is the enigma factor, but I won't get into that atm. I think more selective breeding is what is necessary. Instead of breeding a nice male to multiple average females in order to get a larger percentage of higher grade animals we should be breeding that nice male to fewer equally nice females and be content with a smaller amount of potentially way above average animals. There are a few "big breeders" (I won't mention names) who I feel are a big part of the root of this problem. It's the large amounts of whole saled "pet store quality" animals and the lack of restraint/control in breeding these animals that is adding a large percentage to the market problem.

amen

 

[gothra]

I agree that the market IS flooded. Not just with leos, but all sorts of reptiles! Ball pythons, beardies, etc... The amount of reptiles in the market MUST be reduced by responsible breeders to save our hobby.

Yes, fewer animals means the prices will go up. But this would help reduce the number of new owners that jump into reptile ownership without realizing what type of commitment they are making. This could raise the bar for responsibility among reptile owners. Let's face it: many people are going to take caring for a $100 captive bred leo more seriously than for an $8 green anole. Think of the people who just want a "cool" pet.

Exactly! I think the price for leos are too low due to supply severely exceeding demand; this makes it possible for many irresponsible people to buy a pair cheaply to "play", like a toy! You know, in my country, many people aren't even giving their leos proper care, and of course will not take their leos to a vet, because they got them in cheap and so the vet bill is not worth it. I'm feeling so disgusted with how some people treat these animals these days.

 

[gothra]

Just to clarify, I not talking about the ones that had a heart to start with. I'm referring to those that thinks its cool to get a pair for $10-15, and began breeding and selling these animals even before they know how to properly care for them.

 

[DarthGekko]

You can make money breeding reptiles... Breeding reptiles is not expensive and it is not hard to do... Any 13 year old can do it easily... It can also be done properly very cheaply...
Sure, the market is flooded... Flooded with average looking animals... There are very few animals that I see that I want to buy, but when I do find really good looking above average reptiles, I buy them no matter how much they are... I do not buy animals just for their genetics... I buy them for health, looks, and genetics last... So instead of worrying about how many animals I should or should not produce this year, I aim to produce only high quality animals, not really the hottest new combo morph... I REFINE rather than COMBINE... By doing this you create lesser in number but higher quality animals without a bunch of so-called "bi-products"...

Lets be honest here people... This is our hobby, it is not a job... If you do not want to spend lots of time and some money doing your current hobby, maybe that hobby is not for you... To me this is lots of fun, not work and there is much on my plate in terms of breeding projects... Really, whats hard about this???

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an inexperienced new breeder... We all were that inexperienced new breeder at one point... What make us any different than new people getting into it???

When I started breeding reptiles, we did not have resources like the internet... We did things on whims and on the fly... We made mistakes and learned from them... Thats how you become experienced... Even though you can learn from other peoples mistakes, the best lessons are learned by making your own mistakes...

Well said Gregg.

 

[mutley375]

I think there are a lot of leos but the problem is that not enough people understand the "hobby" side of it like many of us. I just started to vend at shows this year but to talk to one person per show that knows the differences in the geckos on my table is rare. Most folks look at price tags and ask dumdfounded "why is that one twice as much as that one?"
When I think of some of the shows I go to it is a snake supershow with only a few quality breeder(s) of leopard geckos.
At the Indianapolis show I attend I have been the only leo only table with only a few other leos available and most of those are offered at bargain basement prices.
To tackle a flooded market (at least it seems so here) the ball python numbers are off the hook. IMO
Just my two bits 'o copper.

 

[Ga_herps]

I will have to agree the ball market is flooded, but that will never stop people from breeding them. Honestly no matter what the animal or morph is we will always see someone mass producing it. The only thing I can conclude from this is to not just breed everything under the sun. Pick and choose very desirable ones from the morphs YOU like to work with and selectively breed them until you get the desired outcome.
Another thing you can consider is instead of breeding dang females twice a season let them lock up only once, and if she takes DON'T put her back in. I usually produce 3 to 5 clutches from this method over just leaving a female unsupervised in the cage with the male. Quite honestly if anyone complains about this method being time consuming then maybe you don't have enough time in the first place to be breeding. If I don't get the results I was looking for from these clutches then oh well next year is just around the bend.
I am sick and tired of seeing females over worked each season just because you didn't get the exact combo you were looking for. When did it become okay for us to breed a female until she has literally dropped tons of weight just to turn around, and catch weight to do it all over again. I know geckos can drop a lot each season, but it doesn't mean you have to.
Also why have more then a handful of each morph to breed each season. Honestly what can you do with 5.10(other then producing more of a problem) that you can't get the outcome with 1.2 or 2.2 . I know people are going to come back with genetic diversity and all that crap, but honestly at this point I would almost bet that on some morphs every single one out in the US is related. I will leave it at that, and if you don't like what I have to say then to bad I am not here to please anyone. I am here to enjoy the animal and make a little money at it every now and then. Once it becomes a chore then I guess you will see my collection on the market, but until that day comes I will keep breeding.

 

[Taquiq]

Tell me about it. My younger brothers 10 year old friend just got his Leos a month ago. He's thinking that he can breed when he barely knows any morphs let alone genetics. He takes pretty good care but he needs a LOT more experience. And then he thinks he can turn them off on me if he doesn't sell them. Ridiculous...

 

[CREATIVE GECKO]

You can make money breeding reptiles... Breeding reptiles is not expensive and it is not hard to do... Any 13 year old can do it easily... It can also be done properly very cheaply...
Sure, the market is flooded... Flooded with average looking animals... There are very few animals that I see that I want to buy, but when I do find really good looking above average reptiles, I buy them no matter how much they are... I do not buy animals just for their genetics... I buy them for health, looks, and genetics last... So instead of worrying about how many animals I should or should not produce this year, I aim to produce only high quality animals, not really the hottest new combo morph... I REFINE rather than COMBINE... By doing this you create lesser in number but higher quality animals without a bunch of so-called "bi-products"...

Lets be honest here people... This is our hobby, it is not a job... If you do not want to spend lots of time and some money doing your current hobby, maybe that hobby is not for you... To me this is lots of fun, not work and there is much on my plate in terms of breeding projects... Really, whats hard about this???

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an inexperienced new breeder... We all were that inexperienced new breeder at one point... What make us any different than new people getting into it???

When I started breeding reptiles, we did not have resources like the internet... We did things on whims and on the fly... We made mistakes and learned from them... Thats how you become experienced... Even though you can learn from other peoples mistakes, the best lessons are learned by making your own mistakes...

+1:main_thumbsup:

 

[Northstar Herp]

I almost didn't reply to this thread, but then I just couldn't help it. I'm one of those newbies who will breeding the first time this year, and the advice is well taken. But I've been on the same page with the initial post from the beginning. I've got two females that I will breed, one may have to wait til next year. I'm doing it to learn about reptiles in general, as kindof an intro the hobby. I have no problem keeping all the offspring, but would welcome some financial offset as well. I would like to give a big AMEN to the caution against thinking that my millions are to be made in leopard geckos. Thanks for that.

I'm in construction, so the "flooded market" idea is familiar to me and reminds me of my business. Sure, the market is flooded, leos are a luxury, not a necessity, so when the economy goes into the crapper, business is down. When that happens, we shift tactics. scale down your breeding, only focusing on the coolest projects. Keep an eye out to snatch up some great deals and then use them to sure up your breeding stock. Sloppy breeders, the uncommitted, and also good guys go stop producing. Supply and demand works every time and the reptile market, just like the economy, will rebound. Just hang on, and only produce "desirable" animals because they have a better chance at being wanted. Either that, or plan on keeping all your triple hets.

We can't look at this as just a business, because it's not, or shouldn't be. But neither can we throw good sense to the wind and then whine about it. It's the critters that suffer, and leos as an industry could stand some quality control. Maybe the economy is helpful in that respect.