New Enigma Thread

[Gregg M]

Sorry Gregg... I think you need to do a little more research on Nystagmus and ocular albinos.

Again, Nystagmus DOES NOT cause loss of balance or circular walking...
Also, the Enigma is clearly not an ocular albino...

 

[miamimike]

If my animals are not showing signs of this disorder.....should I beat people in the head with the hysteria?....
I and many people working on these understand our respondsibilities....thanks.
But I still choose to do the work...which DOES involve honesty and disclosure....for some that maybe too much work....for me and others like me....it comes quite naturally......

 

[Albey]

Does anyone beside me find this totally disrespectful? Not only is this “Diablo” “KNZ-geckos” character trashing a Morph that Kelli is totally involved with on there side of the ocean but he or she has the audacity to come over here and trash it on her own Forum. Unbelievable! :main_rolleyes: :main_thumbsdown:

 

[SteveB]

Am I to understand you are calling into question my ability to be honest, because I choose not to work with enigmas?

I have not made any personal attacks, mike, so I would appreciate an apology.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Again, Nystagmus DOES NOT cause loss of balance or circular walking...
Also, the Enigma is clearly not an ocular albino...

OK. Check out optokinetic nystagmus in albinos, especially lab rats. It most certainly does cause head waving, walking in circles, and even head nodding. Doing a 5-minute Google check on this condition will not give you the information I am suggesting.

There are several types of Nystagmus. It is basically a condition that can cause the eye not to track movement properly. Sometimes, things appear to be moving past the eyes at rates that the optic nerves cannot transmit the signal properly to the brain. The eyes can only go so far before they snap back and start tracking again.

With some animals that have fixed eyes, instead of their eyes snapping back, their heads begin to follow the movement that their eyes are tracking to compensate for it. This makes them walk with a head tilt, or in a diagonal line, or even walk in circles... or appear to be intoxicated. If you doubt what I am saying, ask your vet how it can affect dogs!

The Enigma came from the Bell albino line, and I believe the Bell albino and Bell Enigma have especially sensitive eyes. It has been pictorially demonstrated in this thread (or was it the other one?) that the Enigma circling became more severe in brighter light. There are several types of Nystagmus that affect albinos.

All I am saying is that I feel this issue with the Enigmas is related somehow to the albinism and Nystagmus.

 

[knz-geckos]

Does anyone beside me find this totally disrespectful? Not only is this “Diablo” “KNZ-geckos” character trashing a Morph that Kelli is totally involved with on there side of the ocean but he or she has the audacity to come over here and trash it on her own Forum. Unbelievable! :main_rolleyes: :main_thumbsdown:

Albey was it not you who saw circling within your enigmas?

At least i've got the bottle to come out into the open with the possible problems the enigma line has. I might be across the other side of the pond but news travels fast and bad news travels faster. Prehaps this morph should of been looked into before the fast release.

An american saying Just my two cents. If Kelli would like to discuss this matter with me then she can do so not a problem I have nothing to hide.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Does anyone beside me find this totally disrespectful? Not only is this “Diablo” “KNZ-geckos” character trashing a Morph that Kelli is totally involved with on there side of the ocean but he or she has the audacity to come over here and trash it on her own Forum. Unbelievable! :main_rolleyes: :main_thumbsdown:

I couldn't agree more. That is why I stated earlier in the thread that warnings and suspensions are in order if it does not stop.

 

[Wezul]

Why doesn't someone start a poll about Enigma health issues?
That way we (as a community) can see the figures, see how many breeders/hobbyists that own Enigmas have problems. Maybe actually seeing the number of healthy Enigmas vs. unhealthy Enigmas will help us to better understand how 'widespread' the problem(s) is/are.

 

[knz-geckos]

I couldn't agree more. That is why I stated earlier in the thread that warnings and suspensions are in order if it does not stop.

The discussion regarding enigmas was already here so how did I come over and start it? I have not broken the T.O.S. I have mearly expressed my opinions on this matter.

 

[knz-geckos]

Why doesn't someone start a poll about Enigma health issues?
That way we (as a community) can see the figures, see how many breeders/hobbyists that own Enigmas have problems. Maybe actually seeing the number of healthy Enigmas vs. unhealthy Enigmas will help us to better understand how 'widespread' the problem(s) is/are.

The Only problem there Wes is how many breeders are going to be truthful etc. Or infact how many are going to dismiss it all together. Prehaps a Annoymous poll would bring people to vote truthfully.

 

[miamimike]

Steve....
I didnt see your name mentioned anywhere in my last thread....it wasnt directed at anyone in particular....sorry if you were offended....but i stand by my feelings

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

If Kelli would like to discuss this matter with me then she can do so not a problem I have nothing to hide.

Paul, you are on Kelli's forum! NO ONE knows more about the Enigma morph than her. Any problem with the Enigma line was let out of the bottle more than two years ago when she proved out the morph. None of this is 'new'.

I might be across the other side of the pond but news travels fast and bad news travels faster. Prehaps this morph should of been looked into before the fast release.

You will need to take that up with Mark Bell, who started marketing the morph before it was proven. Not any one on THIS website, sir. So, let THIS news travel across the pond... if any of you would like to continue being an active member of this website, then KNOCK THIS CRAP OFF. NOW! Read the TOS of this website, or you will be out of here.

 

[knz-geckos]

Paul, you are on Kelli's forum! NO ONE knows more about the Enigma morph than her. Any problem with the Enigma line was let out of the bottle more than two years ago when she proved out the morph. None of this is 'new'.
You will need to take that up with Mark Bell, who started marketing the morph before it was proven. Not any one on THIS website, sir. So, let THIS news travel across the pond... if any of you would like to continue being an active member of this website, then KNOCK THIS CRAP OFF. NOW! Read the TOS of this website, or you will be out of here.

Marcia with the upmost respect
I have not got a problem with you nor with Kelli personally, My problem lies with the Enigma genetics. Unfortunately Kelli hasn't commented on this thread it appears she maybe on Vacation from her previous post. So until she does comment I will continue to discuss the enigma genetics if that is acceptable?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Unfortunately Kelli hasn't commented on this thread it appears she maybe on Vacation from her previous post. So until she does comment I will continue to discuss the enigma genetics if that is acceptable?

It is only acceptable if the discussions are conducted in a respectful and non-confrontational manner. We do not allow the type of combative and negative discussions here like on the forum 'across the pond'.

 

[knz-geckos]

It is only acceptable if the discussions are conducted in a respectful and non-confrontational manner. We do not allow the type of combative and negative discussions here like on the forum 'across the pond'.

My appologys for my behavour its because im english sorry

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

It is not like these are the only geckos that "run" from light. I have hatched Tremper Albinos(non-Enigma) that have showed this condition, and it is due to sensitivity to light IMO. The light is too bright for them, and they seem to want to get away from it, just like most Albinos. Bell`s are even more sensitive to light, so to me that says alot.

I can almost bet that if I go shine a bright light on my female RE Enigma, she will walk like she is blind. Pretty much the same goes for all of my Albinos, of any strain, tho`. She is not blind, but with a high amount of light in the room, she is pretty darn close to it.

 

[miamimike]

I think we all need to be reminded of what Paul Allen stated earlier....that most, if not all of the traits that we find desireable and are reproducing are, in fact, defects.....something other than the abberant wild form.
Lets take albinos for instance....they are argueably more sensitive to light....should this defect in their eyes be reproduced?..are we causing them undue discomfort whenever they are exposed to light?...do we know?....what is it about the blizzard trait that makes them ,or a darn lot of 'em, so much more aggressive than the other leopard geckos morphs?.....have we bred, unknowingly to us, a more violent "state of mind" into these animals?...if so...can that be a good quality of life for an animal?.....raptors are obviously more sensitive to light.....should they be reproduced?...who is to say?....should we take a poll???....
This is absolutely insane people!....
It is nothing more than a self-aggrandizing waste of forum time and space....we are adults...we can decide who we want to buy from and what we want to buy. If you dont trust a breeder to be honest dont buy from them...whether it is enigmas or not!....I would no more buy a $50 normal from someone that I didnt trust, than I would a $2000 enigma.
If you want to wait until five generations of "perfect healthy" enigmas are reproduced before buying into this project...you have every right to do so. Some of us prefer to do the work ourselves and not leave everything to others to lay out on a platter for us....if we are finacially able to do so.
Come with scientific evidence.....not opinionated speculations and you will be received much better from everryone. If we do not do anything for fear of the unknown until everything is 100% for sure...where would we be?

 

[leo mel]

It is not like these are the only geckos that "run" from light. I have hatched Tremper Albinos(non-Enigma) that have showed this condition, and it is due to sensitivity to light IMO. The light is too bright for them, and they seem to want to get away from it, just like most Albinos. Bell`s are even more sensitive to light, so to me that says alot.

I can almost bet that if I go shine a bright light on my female RE Enigma, she will walk like she is blind. Pretty much the same goes for all of my Albinos, of any strain, tho`. She is not blind, but with a high amount of light in the room, she is pretty darn close to it.

hi, i think i heard that diablo blancos were also sensitive to light , is this true and do they react the same as some enigmas when the light is turned up bright, I have raptors that act like this as well as bell albinos but i have only regarded as 'light sensitive' and personally i don't regard light sensitive as neurological, am i correct to asume this:main_huh:

 

[leo mel]

I think we all need to be reminded of what Paul Allen stated earlier....that most, if not all of the traits that we find desireable and are reproducing are, in fact, defects.....something other than the abberant wild form.
Lets take albinos for instance....they are argueably more sensitive to light....should this defect in their eyes be reproduced?..are we causing them undue discomfort whenever they are exposed to light?...do we know?....what is it about the blizzard trait that makes them ,or a darn lot of 'em, so much more aggressive than the other leopard geckos morphs?.....have we bred, unknowingly to us, a more violent "state of mind" into these animals?...if so...can that be a good quality of life for an animal?.....raptors are obviously more sensitive to light.....should they be reproduced?...who is to say?....should we take a poll???....
This is absolutely insane people!....
It is nothing more than a self-aggrandizing waste of forum time and space....we are adults...we can decide who we want to buy from and what we want to buy. If you dont trust a breeder to be honest dont buy from them...whether it is enigmas or not!....I would no more buy a $50 normal from someone that I didnt trust, than I would a $2000 enigma.
If you want to wait until five generations of "perfect healthy" enigmas are reproduced before buying into this project...you have every right to do so. Some of us prefer to do the work ourselves and not leave everything to others to lay out on a platter for us....if we are finacially able to do so.
Come with scientific evidence.....not opinionated speculations and you will be received much better from everryone. If we do not do anything for fear of the unknown until everything is 100% for sure...where would we be?

I agree mike some many geckos have so many different traits to them and really can't understand why it is felt the enigma should be treated so differntly sometimes it feels like it's already been condemmed, which is such a shame, it has been such a excitement in the gecko world and world wide the buzz and hype it has created makes me proud to be the owner of one, there is so much unlocked potential in the morph and a exciting one at that, i really hope that a few negative opinions won't stop this morph being bred.

 

[knz-geckos]

hi, i think i heard that diablo blancos were also sensitive to light , is this true and do they react the same as some enigmas when the light is turned up bright, I have raptors that act like this as well as bell albinos but i have only regarded as 'light sensitive' and personally i don't regard light sensitive as neurological, am i correct to asume this:main_huh:

Diablo Blanco's do not circle when light is increased they find the darkest spot and close their eyes. I should know about that one don't you think Mel?

Also Diablo blanco's arent in question here are they.