New Enigma Thread

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Gang... we have THREE threads going on right now that cover much of the same topics. I can't keep track of them, and I'm sure others are having the same problems following them as well. I would like to remind everyone to stay on the topic of the threads. If we can't seem to manage doing that, I will simply either merge the threads (and then they will be even harder to sort out), or I will close one of them.

Also, personal issues between members of another website forum need to stay THERE. We will not put up with this kind of crap on GeckoForums, so I suggest that if you wish to continue squabbling, simply register to post over on that forum and take it up there. Do not bring it here.

Lastly, discussions regarding other breeder's or business' or ethics here on GF is against the TOS. Warnings and or suspensions from this site will we the consequences for those who cannot follow the simple rules around here.

 

[SteveB]

Has anyone ever had a gecko with a kinked tail????

There is a lot to learn here.

I don't think all deformities are created equal. That we've accepted kink tails as being undesireable but nonthreatening does not make whatever internal defect is manifesting in some engimas minor.

 

[dprince]

Look Deb, I am topical... LOL... I am human Deb, I can never look through "unbiased eyes" at all times... I never claim to do so... What are my motives you ask??? Look, its good to get postings other than "Hey, awesome leo!" or "Should I take my leo off the calci-sand?" Or "Wow, I am going to need sunglasses to look at that SHTCBRREXYZ Enigma SS!!!"

This is real stuff with real meaning and concern... For some reason, when a concern comes up that may have a negative effect, it seems to be quickly shoved into a corner or covered up with posts made in another venue... That is not cleaning the mess... Like I said, I dont agree with Paul 100% but the dude has his points and I have conversed with him personally and he is a real nice guy...

I don't know Paul at all, but would have no problem conversing with him, either. I actually like to talk to people, read, learn from people that I don't always see eye to eye with.

I agree, it IS real stuff, with REAL meaning and concern, but I just don't see how any of this - which has been brought up before - has ever been "swept under the rug." I honestly believe people are attempting to learn, posting results, concerns, etc. What if it IS neurological? What then? What if it's NOT........ We are in this together, to LEARN. Remember when mack snows had lots of problems growing - especially the super snows? Remember when blizzards came out - they had some "personality issues" (one of my favorite sayings from Paul Sage was "het evil"). How about the Bells - some of them had trouble growing in the beginning. RAPTORs are EXTRA sensitive to light.

MOST new morphs have had issues. We as a community - for the most part - really do seem willing to share and learn in the hopes that we can figure out these issues, learn from them, and figure out what direction we as breeders and enthusiasts need to go.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

I did not intend to imply that some of the issue we have seen in some of the Eingmas are minor.

Simply that we have had undesirable traits in the gecko population that we have worked through. I am trying to look at these issues in a similar manner.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I don't think all deformities are created equal. That we've accepted kink tails as being undesireable but nonthreatening does not make whatever internal defect is manifesting in some engimas minor.

Steve, the bottom line is that until we KNOW what's going on, we cannot say one way or the other if it's major or minor... or even a defect at all.

 

[SteveB]

agreed... but should we bring animals to market if we even have to pose that question in the first place?

 

[dprince]

Sorry Debbie I just got annoyed with it and I shouldn't of bought it onto the forums i was just getting frustrated my appologys

Im fine thank you for asking still catching up on sleep after the Hamm show

Thanks for understanding.

 

[dprince]

agreed... but should we bring animals to market if we even have to pose that question in the first place?

If the information is disclosed in advance, why not? Not all enigmas have these issues. Should they all be withheld because some of them exibit weird behaviors?

 

[bro paul]

I know this line of thought could be taken too far, but aren't all or atleast most of the "morphs" we work with actually considered "defects"...for lack of a better word. It just amazes me that we DO have healthy RAPTOR Enigmas...or Giant Super Snow Albinos...etc...when you consider the amount of "altered" genetics involved! (not that I don't LOVE altering them...)

 

[SteveB]

If the information is disclosed in advance, why not? Not all enigmas have these issues. Should they all be withheld because some of them exibit weird behaviors?

Ethically?

If the trend is that some enigmas throughout multiple generations of outcrosses are exhibiting abnormal behaviors, then shouldn't we nail down the form/degree of inheritence of this trait rather than charge upwards of $1500 for something that comes with a clause of "might pass neurological defect on to offspring"?

I know I can't in good faith sell someone a high dollar animal with such a defect. I don't want anyone knowingly breeding an animal that I sold them with the information that it might pass on a neurological defect. Do you?

 

[Gregg M]

Steve, the bottom line is that until we KNOW what's going on, we cannot say one way or the other if it's major or minor... or even a defect at all.

You are right Marcia, it is totally natural for leopard gecko to chase its tail around a cage all day... There is an apparent issue with a small% of them... Its as clear a the words on this page... It is genetic... How it is passed is the only thing not clear... Thats why breeders are working with them aside from the obvious looks of the geckos when outcrossed to other lines... This is coming from someone who has money invested in the morph and I WILL be buying more of them...:main_thumbsup:

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

Ethically?

If the trend is that some enigmas throughout multiple generations of outcrosses are exhibiting abnormal behaviors, then shouldn't we nail down the form/degree of inheritence of this trait rather than charge upwards of $1500 for something that comes with a clause of "might pass neurological defect on to offspring"?

I know I can't in good faith sell someone a high dollar animal with such a defect. I don't want anyone knowingly breeding an animal that I sold them with the information that it might pass on a neurological defect. Do you?

First, it is not a proven neurological defect.

Second, everyone is different.

Lastly, everything in life comes with a clause... you must not have read the fine print. :main_laugh:

 

[miamimike]

I'm not at all trying to be a show off or anything like that....in fact I am sooooo very excited about this morph this year because I can only imagine what the other folks are going to produce if I can produce these .....

Here are a few "non-circling", perfectly healthy, normal acting enigmas from this season.

A morph worth the work?? :main_yes:

 

[SteveB]

First, it is not a proven neurological defect.

Second, everyone is different.

Lastly, everything in life comes with a clause... you must not have read the fine print. :main_laugh:

You're right, it could be some other physiological defect. Walking in circles, is it a balance issue?
It is a proven defect.
If it is linked directly to the enigma gene or if it is a completely different mutation that is being inherited by some enigma offspring, that I could not tell you. Are enigma siblings showing the same defect? If so, are they being culled or sold off as normals with full disclosure?


I just can't imagine ever saying "tell you what, I'll sell you this little guy for only $1000, but just so you know his offspring may have a defect which causes walking in circles or a general failure to thrive"

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

AWESOME, Mike!!!

I know I can't in good faith sell someone a high dollar animal with such a defect. I don't want anyone knowingly breeding an animal that I sold them with the information that it might pass on a neurological defect. Do you?

The 'original' calicos/enigmas were being sold many years ago before they were even proven to be a genetic morph! The choice to start selling them was made entirely by the originator of the morph, and yes... he wanted to go to the bank with it. Unethical? Perhaps. It happens all the time!

Personally, I would rather buy a 'new' morph from someone who has spent a lot of time, sweat, and tears to prove it out, examine the possibilities that a few of them may be flawed (just like every single new morph that has ever been introduced), and that discloses that information. With minor exception, I feel that the majority of breeders working with the Enigma will either discover what any issues are with the morph, and/or get those issues resolved.

It seems to me that putting our heads together will solve a lot more than knocking our heads together!

 

[miamimike]

Steve....

Then dont buy one!.....No one is twisting your arm...but dont tell us that want to put in the work and honestly disclose what we find that we can't...deal??

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I still think it has something to do with Nystagmus, which is not uncommon in ocular albinos.

 

[Gregg M]

I still think it has something to do with Nystagmus, which is not uncommon in ocular albinos.

One has nothing to do with the other... Nystagmus has to do with the eye muscles... You are talking about a condition that occurs when some one is on drugs or drunk... So unless you consider having blood shot eye ocular albinism, this is not likely the case... The condition also does not cause loss of balance or circular walks in the park...

 

[SteveB]

Mike, have I once condemned you for your choice to work with enigmas?

However I would argue that if it was about wanting to put in the work, the issue of selling top dollar animals on the public market which ethically required a clause about defects would be a nonissue.

So when you finally bring enigmas to the market, hopefully they will be outcrossed to the point where the physiological/neurological defects will be completely stamped out. That'll be a wonderful thing and a boon to the hobby!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

One has nothing to do with the other... Nystagmus has to do with the eye muscles... You are talking about a condition that occurs when some one is on drugs or drunk... So unless you consider having blood shot eye ocular albinism, this is not likely the case... The condition also does not cause loss of balance or circular walks in the park...

Sorry Gregg... I think you need to do a little more research on Nystagmus and ocular albinos.