Possible genetic problem w/ my super snow

[acpart]

This could go in any one of 3 sections, but I'll put it here:

I had to take 3 of my geckos to the vet tonight, all with early stages of mouthrot. One was my male AFT and his case is unrelated (they are now all on antibiotics and should be fine).

What caused the concern are my 2 super snows, father and daughter. The father (Oskar) went to the vet a year ago with blocked nostrils and a respiratory infection. He went on antibiotics and was fine.

Tonight, both Oskar and his daughter Toby were at the vet. Oskar once again has blocked nostrils, of which the vet could only clear one. He actually has no signs of mouth infection but is probably breathing through his mouth and could get one if not treated.

Toby has the very early beginnings of a lesion on her mouth and also had some blockage in her nostrils. Both of them had very recently stopped eating which alerted me to the problem.

One person that I sold a supersnow that Oskar fathered emailed me recently with a description of similar issues.

Oskar has produced many snows and supersnows during the past 2 years some of which I own and the problem seems to be only with a relatively small number of the supersnows. It's notable that many of the super snows have relatively short snouts.

I would like to keep breeding Oskar since he is a gorgeous guy and the number of affected supersnows is very low. I have several options and was curious about how people think I should proceed (I didn't feel like making this a poll):

--continue to breed Oskar to snows to get supersnows, observe the babies carefully and inform anyone buying a supersnow of the potential for blocked nostrils

--breed Oskar only to non-snows, give up on producing any more super snows and monitor for snows with nostril problems

--don't breed Oskar anymore at all.

ALso, has anyone else encountered this problem with any of their geckos?

ALiza

 

[acpart]

I'm really hoping that there are some people who read this and have some thoughts about this issue because I'd like some other opinions to help me decide how to proceed with my breeding plans this season.

THanks,

Aliza

 

[JordanAng420]

Aliza,
Has any culture and sensitivity been performed on anybody? It would help to determine what is going on and how to isolate it, I would think. Oskar sounds like he could use a culture of whatever is coming out of his nose. Toby sounds like she could use 2 cultures, one from the nose and one from that lesion on the mouth.

It concerns me that one of your customers is having the same problem. Could this, perhaps, be some form of reptilian herpes?

I am hesitant to give my opinion as to what you should proceed to do...i'd love to know exactly what came from those cultures. If it IS herpes, then yes, some strains are genetic and I would say that you should discontinue breeding Oscar. If it's something treatable that's just getting cross contaminated some other way, then there is hope.

 

[T-ReXx]

If it were me I'd probably continue to breed him to test it out. I might breed him to a couple of snows and a couple of non-snows and do some careful observation to see where the genetic link(if there is one) is coming into play. Any babies sold of course would need to be sold with a warning about potential problems. If it is something genetic, unfortunately he may need to be retired. This is sort of like the "enigma issue." A small percentage of the offspring may carry the genes for this problem and ethically this begs questioning on whether or not it offspring that could potentially develop them should be produced. Because this can be a quality of life issue, if there is any amount of certainty that he carries genes that will cause this problem he should be retired and replaced with another, unrelated male. These kinds of things are tough choices, but in reality there are so many leos in the world that it really doesn't make sense to breed one that has a genetic issue that can affect the future lives of his offspring.

 

[acpart]

Aliza,
Has any culture and sensitivity been performed on anybody? It would help to determine what is going on and how to isolate it, I would think. Oskar sounds like he could use a culture of whatever is coming out of his nose. Toby sounds like she could use 2 cultures, one from the nose and one from that lesion on the mouth.

It concerns me that one of your customers is having the same problem. Could this, perhaps, be some form of reptilian herpes?

I am hesitant to give my opinion as to what you should proceed to do...i'd love to know exactly what came from those cultures. If it IS herpes, then yes, some strains are genetic and I would say that you should discontinue breeding Oscar. If it's something treatable that's just getting cross contaminated some other way, then there is hope.

I should be a little clearer about what's going on and what my concern is. This is not a case where there is any discharge from the nose. In the case of Oskar, the nostrils are occluded and one seems to have become covered with scar tissue, which the vet was not comfortable removing. The vet (who is a reptile specialist) feels that occluded nostrils lead to mouth breathing which can eventually lead to mouth infections. Oskar actually doesn't have a mouth infection but is definitely breathing through his mouth. Toby has a very small lesion and had some nostril occlusion, but not like Oskars. Actually at the time it was hard to tell if she had occlusion from the nostrils that was encroaching on the front of her mouth or occlusion at the front of her mouth that was encroaching on her nose. In any case, it was easily removed and there is no discharge or pus anywhere, just a small scab in Toby's case and no mouth lesion in Oskar's. I heard from the other super snow owner tonight and her gecko is also getting antibiotics and is doing much better. I have sold other super snows (including 2 to a neighbor) that are fine.

My theory is that some of the supersnows have shorter snouts than many geckos I've seen --not abnormally short, just a different shape within what I'd consider normal for a gecko, and I wonder if there's something about the configuration of the nasal passages that is leading to nasal occlusion.

I have bred Oskar to a total of 4 geckos during the past 2 years, 1 snow and 3 non-snows and have held some of these back as breeders. I have not seen or heard from anyone else except this one person I mentioned about any other geckos having problems. Two of the super snows were sold to people who are at least nominally on the forums.

I'm debating at the moment between continuing to produce super snows with him and selling the babies with a warning or continuing to breed him but not with another snow.

If anyone else has had any issues like this, or if they have a SS with a relatively short nose, I'd love to hear from them. I'll try to take a picture later this week.

Aliza

 

[Taquiq]

You should experiment and breed to a Snow to see if it is passed down generation to generation in a couple babies. If it is I would stop breeding him it because the vet bill would be huge.

 

[acpart]

You should experiment and breed to a Snow to see if it is passed down generation to generation in a couple babies. If it is I would stop breeding him it because the vet bill would be huge.

See from my previous email that I have done that already and nearly all of them are fine.

Aliza

 

[Neill]

All i can say is that is a tough situation. I remember that boy oskar when i stopped by. He is beautiful! Me being a total newbie at breeding (2nd year) I would say breed him but keep babies a lot longer. Follow snout sizes and maybe ones that have the more prone it blockage snouts offer up as rescues and perhaps get another amazing male with a nice snout size and breed the trait out.

 

[moosassah]

Hello Aliza. I'm jumping in to say that my SS that I picked up from you in July is doing fine (born in May). She's a healthy eater. Her only quirk is that when not sleeping on the heated end of her tank, she sleeps in a standing up position against one of her fake rocks. She's 29 grams, beautiful and the friendliest gecko in our collection.

I'll definitely contact you if anything does occur. I use the Odd Pet Vet over at the wildlife center, so if anything does occur, I'm sure he'd share the information with you.

You know I don't breed, but I'd think your best option would be to attempt to test Oscar in order to discover the reason behind the illness.

 

[acpart]

I have been contacting people that I sold Super snows to this past year and so far they are all OK. It seems to be a very limited problem. I'll keep you all posted.

Aliza

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Personally I would not breed him anymore. Even if there is a small percentage of people who have purchased these SS from you that have the infection (which may be a genetic link to the father)...that means that all the other may have it as well but not express it. I fully understand your desire to want to breed him since I am a SS nut myself but I see no BENEFIT of breeding a geckos that you know has medical issues. Keep him as a pet and get another SS to breed. If you were not so far I would donate you one of my SS males....but your many moons away. Anywho I think you should not sell anything or breed anything that comes from him. IMO

 

[GeckoGathering]

Knowledge of Problem

Personally I would not breed him anymore. Even if there is a small percentage of people who have purchased these SS from you that have the infection (which may be a genetic link to the father)...that means that all the other may have it as well but not express it. I fully understand your desire to want to breed him since I am a SS nut myself but I see no BENEFIT of breeding a geckos that you know has medical issues. Keep him as a pet and get another SS to breed. If you were not so far I would donate you one of my SS males....but your many moons away. Anywho I think you should not sell anything or breed anything that comes from him. IMO

Aliza.
(may not be what you want to hear
and it is not meant to offend you,
in any way,but you asked)
I agree (IMO) with Travis & Jennifer as the way
I would handle any known possible ? problem.
To be completely honest, to me testing seems to
be more time consuming and costly than
replacement with a new blood line male.
And if you were not wanting to be completely
honest with your customers, you wouldn't have
made this thread.
Not seeing is really no assurance that the problem
is not still being passed on.
But than it could also be in your keepers from him.
I can relate to this in a way, it is a hard decision to make.
I presently have a beautiful, very white,
super snow male with a health situation,
and it's tearing me up because I have chosen
not to use him for breeding.
Take care. HJ

 

[acpart]

I have taken everyone's advice to heart and will be retiring my beloved Oskar as a breeder. He will be moving into a nice cage, possibly with my 8 year old female who does not appear to ovulate anymore (he is not an agressive breeder; this has worked for me in other cases as well).

I am excited that I'll be receiving a hypo Mack snow male from Thad of Ohio Gecko the week after next (I'll post pictures when I get him) to take Oskar's place. Since one of his intended partners after quarantine is a snow/fasciolatus cross, I will still be able to produce super snows.

One silver lining in the situation is that I'm hoping this new Mack snow will produce whiter offspring. Since super snows are genetically black and white, it's impossible to know what their non-super genetic potential is for coloring. I have had a disappointing number of gray/yellow snows from Oskar and am looking forward to seeing what his replacement produces.

Aliza

 

[robin]

i was going to agree with travis and HJ as well

good luck with your new snow