Red-eyed enigmas

[nats]

On sale at VMSHerps for only 275.00 (from 350.00).
Sean always has these, and his animals are always top notch.
He also has the best prices around.
Can anyone think of a reason why I shouldn't buy one?
I am thinking of getting another female, and I am always struggling
trying to decide if I ever want to breed or not :main_rolleyes:

Is this the appropriate place to post this?

 

[Nigel4less]

Circlers... thats the problem with Buying Enigmas online is you never know if you end up with Spinners and Circlers. Personally which is why most of my Enigmas have been seen in person before any money is exchanged.

 

[nats]

Circlers... thats the problem with Buying Enigmas online is you never know if you end up with Spinners and Circlers. Personally which is why most of my Enigmas have been seen in person before any money is exchanged.

Nigel, I dont understand your post :main_huh:
What's a spinners and circlers?
They do have the brightest red eyes :main_yes:

 

[JordanAng420]

Some enigmas tend to spin around and around in a circle, in their tank...it's kind of an obsessive-like behavior... geckos that exhibit this behavior are called spinners/circlers...

i'm sure there are other threads regarding this issue, you might just want to search the forums for "enigma"

 

[nats]

Wow, I have never heard of this behavior before!
At what age do they develop this?

 

[thestack510]

Some Enigmas have a neurological disorder and tend to walk in circles, or spin. I have 14 or so Enigmas and only a few show any signs of this disorder. I wish you luck.

 

[JordanAng420]

I'm not really sure when it starts, there's a lot of discussion/debates about it, I guess about genetics & buying/selling enigmas with the problem. Maybe some of the more experianced breeders can chime in here...

I agree with Nigel. If you can see the enigma you're interested in before the purchase is made, it would be best.

 

[thestack510]

The breeders I know are all about full disclosure of such facts.

 

[preacherman]

Circlers... thats the problem with Buying Enigmas online is you never know if you end up with Spinners and Circlers. Personally which is why most of my Enigmas have been seen in person before any money is exchanged.

I understand your concern, Nigel, but most of the breeders that I know of wouldn't think of being dishonest about any symptoms of circling that an Enigma might have. If you purchase from a breeder with a solid reputation, then he or she should be willing to stand behind their animals.
If someone is really in the market for a red-eyed Enigma, I'm sure you will find a number of us on this site with healthy, beautiful animals for sale at very competive prices.

 

[nats]

I understand your concern, Nigel, but most of the breeders that I know of wouldn't think of being dishonest about any symptoms of circling that an Enigma might have. If you purchase from a breeder with a solid reputation, then he or she should be willing to stand behind their animals.
If someone is really in the market for a red-eyed Enigma, I'm sure you will find a number of us on this site with healthy, beautiful animals for sale at very competive prices.

I am sure most breeders feel the same. I have known Sean at VMS
for a few years now, he is a good guy, he does not charge alot for
his animals or take advantage of the latest hot morph and over charge
for it.
Though his leos are all very robust and high quality, they are not what
I would call "cream-of-the-crop" show quality for breeders.

Right now, I am just in "wishful thinking" mode, so I'm not yet ready to
press the "add to cart" button

I am thinking more like I should wait until Spring when everyone will have
cute little babies :main_yes:

For me, nothing in life is more thrilling and rewarding than receiving a new
little leo and opening the lid to it's deli cup to see those little eyes
starring up at me

If I were only retired, and had lots of space, I would have a pair of every
morph :main_thumbsup: breed some of them, and KEEP every single one!!

P.S. I just want to add, I do not mean to imply that breeders "overcharge"!
I understand that it can take years, and alot of hard work and patience
to get some of these morphs :main_yes:

 

[Gecko Euphoria]

I dont understand Nigels post as well. Just cause you buy one on line doesnt mean that you are going to get spinners, you can get spinners at shows as well and not every one knows what to look for. like Jayson said most breeders or any one who is ethical anyway will tell you if you are looking online at there stock wether it has any symptoms. I have bought a few that spun and a few that didnt and the ones that spun I was told with a disclosure statemnt before I even bought them and let me tell you price had nothing to do with it at all since I paid $900 for one of the ones that spins and you know what she is thriveing and gave me 12 babies last year and guess what none of them have showed any signs of spinning, And I have 11 that I purchased that dont spin and one of those gave me four babies that spin, so even if they spin as long as they are honest with you and tell you and stand behind there animals then I don't see that as a problem its ultimately your desicion to buy if you like the animal and have the story on it and it doesnt bother you than buy it if you get a deal, you wont regret it. I certainly dont regret buying either of the two I purchased with drunken syptoms, So do what you feel is right. I have bought a couple from sean and they didn't have spins so that post was nothing but a slam to him and his buisiness since its not truth, Since all those enigmas being sold have not been seen buy anyone but Sean, then who is any one to say why the animals are being discounted. But from what I've seen Sean always drops prices this time of year so he can clear his inventory to make room for the next up coming season. If you look at his sight alot more geckos than just enigmas are discounted do they have problems as well??? I dont think that people should comment on things if they have no clue what they are talking about. So I dont think that statement was fair. Hope this wasnt mean or anything Just needed to back those of us who sell enigmas on line and make sure we disclose these issues of concern to buyers. Had to defend all of us who sell enigmas online and Sean for being unfairly slammed with no backing what so ever from Nigels post. Nigel I think you should do research before saying things like that. Some people have buisnesses and rely on them to live and statements like that are unfair, I wonder if you have ever purchased from Sean, or know him at all. He wouldnt have been in buisness for as long as he has if he had screwed people or all his desicions to lower prices meant the animals had problems. So that said no offense to you Nigel just want you to know that your statement was totally in appropriate, and false!!! what if people slammed you like that knowing nothing about you or your animals. Just wanted to defend all of us who know better and to let people know that they do not need be scared to buy enigmas online, what nigel said has no standing or proof that all enigmas online are spinners it is just propoganda, and not every one is out to screw people and most honest breeders will disclose any problem with any animals especially enigmas, so do not be afraid if you see an animal you like on any web sight to purchase it if you have questions ask you'll get an answer. Thanks for reading this big post I just feel very passionate about leos and false thoughts get me sometimes, again no offense Nigel Just thought you needed a little lesson in truth,

Adam

Some Enigmas have a neurological disorder and tend to walk in circles, or spin. I have 14 or so Enigmas and only a few show any signs of this disorder. I wish you luck.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

[puts on MOGL hat]Let's make sure this thread does not turn into a discussion about any particular company or breeder's ethics... thanks![/takes off MOGL hat]

I think what Nigel is saying is, that it could be a problem buying enigmas online from unknown sources. Not all sellers have good ethics about disclosing problems with their animals, and enigmas occasionaly have 'neurological' issues. I also agree with Jason, that the majority of the breeders I know working with the enigma, especially those on this forum, are ethical and would definitely disclose it if they has enigmas that exhibited this behavior.

 

[nats]

[puts on MOGL hat]Let's make sure this thread does not turn into a discussion about any particular company or breeder's ethics... thanks![/takes off MOGL hat]

I think what Nigel is saying is, that it could be a problem buying enigmas online from unknown sources. Not all sellers have good ethics about disclosing problems with their animals, and enigmas occasionaly have 'neurological' issues. I also agree with Jason, that the majority of the breeders I know working with the enigma, especially those on this forum, are ethical and would definitely disclose it if they has enigmas that exhibited this behavior.

I read Nigel's post as a tip to me to just be aware of the problem, not as
a slam. But I did get the impression that he does not know who Sean
is I am glad that someone told about this dissorder.

 

[malt_geckos]

Circlers... thats the problem with Buying Enigmas online is you never know if you end up with Spinners and Circlers. Personally which is why most of my Enigmas have been seen in person before any money is exchanged.

I seriosly doubt they would sell anything like that Nigel. If they did, it would be pointless because the gecko would just get returned and it would be bad for their name.

 

[nats]

To get back on the topic of my thread, and in light of my learning
about this weird nerve disorder, my second choice for a new female
would be a nice tang.
Since I am still struggling to understand all these morph phases out
there, who among you guys are specializing in this morph?
I love the really electric orange tangs.
Who has the best stock, and what is the price range (about)?
Are there any "hidden" genetic problems with them also that I should
know about?
Wow, leo collecting is so much more complicated than it was back in
1990's :main_huh:

 

[Nigel4less]

All I can say is the Influx of Fire sales(Not anyone but many various breeders) have Enigmas for sale that have obviously circling issues. The problem is that I`ve talked to many reliable sources about Shipping and the toll it takes on Enigmas. My point of view has changed after talking about a lot of people as I believe this gene is similar to what occurs in Spider Ball pythons with spontaneous twitching. I mean the Spider Ball has been around for 10 years and still MOST but not all Spider ball pythons and even some Spider Combinations(BumbleBees, CinnaBees, etc), still seem to do it to a lesser extent. But until some serious testing is done, I will never know the answers to these questions. I appreciate everyones input and if I upset anyone I apologize.

 

[Nigel4less]

I read Nigel's post as a tip to me to just be aware of the problem, not as
a slam. But I did get the impression that he does not know who Sean
is I am glad that someone told about this dissorder.

Actually I do own some VMS Herps Not just Leopard Geckos, various Sand and Rosy boas aswell.

 

[herpencounter]

http://www.psgeckos.co.uk/enigma.php

 

[Haligren]

Why do enigmas have this disorder? Is it a result of inbreeding? And is it really a problem that they circle? Or do they do it until they get dizzy and throw up? :B

*actually reads the article posted*

Oh.

lol

 

[Gecko Euphoria]

Nigel I appologize I am Very passionate about all enigmas, I now have 32 of them as of yesterday 20 I hatched out of all those enigmas a couple that I hatched were a bit shakey, But the majority have no I repeat no signs of this neurilogical disorder, and the ones that do I think I like more because they have more of a need for me to care for them and get alot more attention with hand feeding and such, But if you want to get picky on the enigma morphs disorders which has not been proven to be harmful to the gecko and I personally dont think its a problem from my breedings, Then you should be nit picking every single morph out there because of in breeding, there is a possibility that all those deformities last year when the meal worms hit could just as well been from so much inbreeding so I think any morph you own in my opinion has a chance maybe not as big of chance but a chance of haveing a problem, And any gecko you buy any where could have any kind of disorder its not fair to single out people or animals. But the real reason for my post is no one has the right to say that someones animals are discounted because they are "spinners" when you have no idea or proof I dont care who it is thats what boi is for . So thats what really got me in a tiff other than that your opinion is your opinion. But I do think that when you just say stuff like that without explaining it " you know all enigmas are spinners " which they are not ,with no facts then you need to have proof to back it up cause all it does is scares people away from haveing the chance to own these beautiful animals for the fear that you created with a half truths. sure they have a chance for disorders. And most honest breeders will disclose this even if the gecko has no sign, But there is just as many enigmas that are perfectly fine as there are that have this neurilogical disorder. so its fine to warn people of it but tell them the whole story and if you dont have the whole story its better to let them research it and find out what they can rather than realy on your knowledge, which may not be fully accurate. With all this said I want you to know I am sorry if I seem rude at all not my intention I just want you to know that. I just think we should be helping people understand this problem and finding more out about it rather than scareing people a way from it and putting fear and false dislike for that which we do not fully understand, at least tell we do. Please take no offense this is just my life and I am very passionate about enigmas they are beautiful creatures. And any one who is looking to get one you wont be disappointed I asure you, they have the most amazing and enriched colors.

Actually I do own some VMS Herps Not just Leopard Geckos, various Sand and Rosy boas aswell.