sand impaction

[mypreludeisred]

Excellent research Scott. Kharma to you.


That post should be a sticky so the sand debate and the "its natural" debate never need to be dicussed.

 

[robin]

i also did my research and got my info from actually zoo's and researcher.

most of this site describes their natural habitat as rock, clay or dirt with sand on top. although there are some that are in arid grasslands and bordering forests (in one report)

http://bornova.ege.edu.tr/~bgocmen/home14.html#Family

look at the distribution area look at the subspecies as well and also check out the areas mentioned to see the exact terrain for yourself.
(too much into to quote lol)

turkey, pakistan, Afghanistan, siria, inda, iran and iraq
here is the worlf fact book and then look up the individual regions leopard geckos and subspecies have been found.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

also from the oakland zoo

http://www.oaklandzoo.org/atoz/azgecko.html

"II. GEOGRAPHICAL RANGE AND HABITAT:
Desert areas of eastern Iran, Pakistan and western India. Habitat: arid rock and sand terrain."

 

[ReptileMan27]

Excellent research Scott. Kharma to you.


That post should be a sticky so the sand debate and the "its natural" debate never need to be dicussed.

I agree 110%:main_thumbsup:, sand lovers just keep grasping at everything they can to make themselfs feel better about using it. God knows what their new excuse for using it is next week:main_no:

 

[geckofreak570]

Great research, just because leos in the wild MAY come in contact with sand, doesent make it safe or natural. Captive and wild are 2 different things, animals generally live longer in captivity, why?, simple certain dangerous things that they would have to deal with in the wild, they dont have to deal with in captivity. If you feel sand is so natural and fine, then why not add some more natural things to your leo cage, like some predators, a snake maybe?, its natural, it should be fine:main_laugh:. All the leos we have, never even seen the wild and never will.

i agree

 

[Scott&Nikki]

i also did my research and got my info from actually zoo's and researcher.

most of this site describes their natural habitat as rock, clay or dirt with sand on top. although there are some that are in arid grasslands and bordering forests (in one report)

http://bornova.ege.edu.tr/~bgocmen/home14.html#Family

look at the distribution area look at the subspecies as well and also check out the areas mentioned to see the exact terrain for yourself.
(too much into to quote lol)

Alright, see... your first link would have been a good site to back up my point. It states "The specimens collected by Zarudny and identified as this species were found on hard clay soil strewn with sand". So in other words, it is almost identical to my leos tank where it is slate tile and sand sometimes get loose from the edges and scatters extremely finely along parts of the substrate. They live in arid/windy regions. If where the stay is only "strewn" with sand, that most likely means they choose a spot without sand and some gets blown around up there.

turkey, pakistan, Afghanistan, siria, inda, iran and iraq
here is the worlf fact book and then look up the individual regions leopard geckos and subspecies have been found.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html

Your second link has nothing to do with the actual area where leos are found. I mean, where I live right now, there is a town with a population of 1,000. It is only 4 square miles and there are so many different terrains just in that city, let alone a country the size of Texas. Even still, if you look up Afganistan it says "mostly rugged mountains; plains in north and southwest". Iraq: "mostly broad plains; reedy marshes along Iranian border in south with large flooded areas; mountains along borders with Iran and Turkey". Iran: "rugged, mountainous rim; high, central basin with deserts, mountains; small, discontinuous plains along both coasts". This stuff is no way efficient in telling what terraine leos are in.

also from the oakland zoo

http://www.oaklandzoo.org/atoz/azgecko.html

"II. GEOGRAPHICAL RANGE AND HABITAT:
Desert areas of eastern Iran, Pakistan and western India. Habitat: arid rock and sand terrain."

A zoo... I don't even know what to think about a zoo. Hmm... they listed Tremper as a source.

 

[robin]

Alright, see... your first link would have been a good site to back up my point. It states "The specimens collected by Zarudny and identified as this species were found on hard clay soil strewn with sand". So in other words, it is almost identical to my leos tank where it is slate tile and sand sometimes get loose from the edges and scatters extremely finely along parts of the substrate. They live in arid/windy regions. If where the stay is only "strewn" with sand, that most likely means they choose a spot without sand and some gets blown around up there.


Your second link has nothing to do with the actual area where leos are found. I mean, where I live right now, there is a town with a population of 1,000. It is only 4 square miles and there are so many different terrains just in that city, let alone a country the size of Texas. Even still, if you look up Afganistan it says "mostly rugged mountains; plains in north and southwest". Iraq: "mostly broad plains; reedy marshes along Iranian border in south with large flooded areas; mountains along borders with Iran and Turkey". Iran: "rugged, mountainous rim; high, central basin with deserts, mountains; small, discontinuous plains along both coasts". This stuff is no way efficient in telling what terraine leos are in.




A zoo... I don't even know what to think about a zoo. Hmm... they listed Tremper as a source.

also if you read some of the other pages you will be that leos are found in rocky outcroppings with same (well some)


a zoo is better than some random webpage.

as far as the second link it you check out the country it gives you what kind of terrain each place has (well what you put in the search area). i have researched the actual areas leos were found in. i am not going to do it for your guys (it's long and i really do not feel like going that far and using my time, to prove my part) but yes sand is part of their environment. however if you guys would like some photos of turkey, kuwait and iran and some of the other areas in the middle east. i have friends in these places that would be kind enough to take some photos for you.

by the way. i was actually anti sand till i did in depth research

 

[Scott&Nikki]

also if you read some of the other pages you will be that leos are found in rocky outcroppings with same (well some)


a zoo is better than some random webpage.

as far as the second link it you check out the country it gives you what kind of terrain each place has (well what you put in the search area). i have researched the actual areas leos were found in. i am not going to do it for your guys (it's long and i really do not feel like going that far and using my time, to prove my part) but yes sand is part of their environment. however if you guys would like some photos of turkey, kuwait and iran and some of the other areas in the middle east. i have friends in these places that would be kind enough to take some photos for you.

by the way. i was actually anti sand till i did in depth research

My point is that yes, there is sand where leos live, but they do not "live on sand". They live in clay and rock with light sand coverings. As someone else said, just because there is small amounts of sand where leos live, does not mean it is "safe" and we should put our pets on 3 inches of it. What I was trying to do with that example of the town near me was to show that even in an extremely small area, you can have different terrains. You can find leos in Kuwait. Let's just say (i don't know) that Kuwait is a sandy city. That does NOT mean that the ENTIRE city is completely covered in sand, and according to my research, the leos will go to those areas NOT covered in sand. That is why your friends pictures, and the country website you gave me is irrelevant. Unless they have a picture of a wild leo on inches of sand, it is useless. Almost every site I found stated that leos hide under rocks and in cave-like areas only leaving when necessary. That is primarily due to there being less sand in these areas. If you really think about it, these sites state that leos live on areas with clay, rock, and sand, right? If there were inches of sand, why would stating hard-packed clay even be important? It wouldn't come into play if that was the case. If the wild was like some people's tanks that use sand, clay would never be mentioned on these sites, and either would moutains and marshes. You are combining two very different types of terrain into one big area when that is not how it is.

 

[robin]

i am not going to argue with you. i will let you believe what you may. my point of photos was to show you photos of what a certain region where leos are found looks like.. the dept of the sand is relative to what the rest of the area is like or used to. in the area i live in it says we live on clay and limestone with a thin layer of topsoil. well a thin layer of topsoil can range from1 - 6 inches here. so as far as a thin or sparse layer of sand. how deep is that? like i said it's relative. just because i say sand does not mean like sahara sand dunes and stuff.
but take my words and twist them as you may, to make your point but i will not argue with you, since in my opinion it is not worth the time or effort. you guys are too narrow minded to look outside your "internet" research and actually look at the facts and regions in which these guys live and have actually been collected or seen.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Alright well, I was trying to prove my point, but if you are going to sit there and call me narrow minded for not seeing your point, what are you for not seeing mine? If your gonna start with the name calling, you sure are right this isn't worth the time. You say I am twisting your words, but all I am doing is saying you're speaking more generally and completely ignoring what I have found. Your saying a thin layer can range from 1 to 6 inches, but I am saying the leos will purposely go to the part with less. You have looked past that in about 4 straight posts. I thought this was a generally good debate until your last post, so I am also done.

 

[robin]

ok hell let's go farther. they live in knotholes and in trees too.
and yes i understand what you are talking about but you must realize in some regions the thin layer of sand may be in inch or so deep.

 

[NaughtyDawg]

Here is what I could quickly find:




www.drgecko.com : "They inhabit the rocky desert and savanna regions which generally tend to be arid in nature. The natural substrate is hardened clay with light sand coverings."

Jut out of curiosity, where would they lay their eggs.....

 

[robin]

a rock

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Jut out of curiosity, where would they lay their eggs.....

They spend the majority of the time under rocks/in caves.

 

[robin]

so what substrate? do they just lay them under a rock or in a cave unburied and then leave them there? the instinctual digging of gravid mother about to lay and them burying there eggs suggest they lay them in some kind of material.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

so what substrate? do they just lay them under a rock or in a cave unburied and then leave them there? the instinctual digging of gravid mother about to lay and them burying there eggs suggest they lay them in some kind of material.

I haven't found any info on that, but my guess would be soil. Even if it is sand, I don't see you using perlite as a substrate.

 

[robin]

would chips or chunks of clay, rock and slate be so different?

and i used paper towels as a substrate, sand for some and soil/sand mixture for others but i incubate in vermiculite and have used perlite a few times.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

would chips or chunks of clay, rock and slate be so different?

and i used paper towels as a substrate, sand for some and soil/sand mixture for others but i incubate in vermiculite and have used perlite a few times.

Wait that first part confused me... can you clear up what you mean?

And what I meant about the perlite: You were asking why leos instictively dig to lay their eggs and how they would do this on the hardened clay and rock, right? So my point is that I could see it being possible that they lay their eggs in sand or soil. However, that does not mean at all that they want to live in those conditions. If you look at sea turtles, they live in the water, but will overcome many obstacles to get to shore in order to lay their eggs in the sand. Sandy beaches are not a "safe" or "natural" environment for a sea turtle, though. Just because they may use sand, doesn't mean it is their natural environment. So I stated that many of you use vermiculite or perlite in your lay boxes, but I have never seen any of you use vermiculite or perlite as a rack or tank substrate outside of the lay box. For all we know, the only reason they stay by sand at all is to lay their eggs out of predator's view. That could be purely survival instinct for laying eggs but a very poor environment in general.

 

[robin]

most people do not use perlite or vermiculite in their lay boxes. they use moss or something similar. like sphagnum moss. the eggs are generally incubated in perlite or vermiculite.

the first part was referring to the comment about you using perlite as a substrate. if someone chose to, would it be so different than chips or clumps or clay, rock or slate (which you say is safe to use)?

perlite is not (normally) used as a substrate or lay medium because it's undigestibility, same should be of vermiculite in lay boxes or as a substrate.


while sea turtles do lay on the beaches and stuff they live in oceans where there is an abundance of sand.

 

[Lottiz]

Hey, if you want to be sure, don't use sand, as simple as that!

I've been using sand for my leos in a lot of years and, yes, the ate it and poo it, No problems...until January '07...

I got home and found my lovely Hero, tang. striped male poop out his guts!

He drag this hard, dry "sticks" of guts in the sand and I had to cut them away:

I clean him up but couldn't get the cuted guts in to his belly again, so...it was just one thing to do...

On the other side of the rainbow bridge...my Hero....

Before January I would probably said; keep the sand, it's no danger.

Today I don't use sand at all. It's not worth the risk!
But if you think it is, keep your sand....

 

[NaughtyDawg]

Sorry for your loss Lottiz, but are you saying the cause of this was a sand substrate? If so how?