sand impaction

[brandy101010]

I am a breeder. granted I have not been breeding for long but I care about every single one of my leos. I choose not to use sand because of the risk factor and because paper towles are alot easier and cleaner. I have used sand with other herps with out problems. I don't recomend sand for leos but I in no way think that if someone uses sand that they do not care what happens to their leos. That is just absurd.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Man, thats a pretty crappy finger to point at the breeders on this site... Do you honestly feel that the breeders here do not care about the animals they produce??? That is what you are implying with this post, is it not??? I know I am not speaking for myself when I say that my breeders and all of the neonates I produce are treated as pets, not disposable items... I think you took it a bit far with that statement...

I am not at all saying that. What I meant was the people that seem to think sand is ok are usually breeders. Not that all breeders think that. And what I said was in response to Robin saying "**** happens... 1 out of however many isn't bad". So in response to that and anyone that agrees with that, yes I am saying they don't care as much as some do. If a pet of mine died because of something I could have prevented, I would feel TERRIBLE. I wouldn't think "That sucks, well, 1 out of however many isn't bad".

It has nothing to do with someone being new and adding their opinion to a thread... We can all learn from someone else at one point and I know I respect other peoples opinions, even if I do not agree...

Again, in response to Robins comment to a couple of us.

The problem is when anyone starts saying somthing is a fact when it is, in reality, just their opinion... This goes for newer and experienced keepers... If what you have read is enough for you to not use a certain substrate or food item, that is your choice... If your choice is valid to you, that is all that matters...
Trust me, I do not use sand and never will... But you also can not point at someone and say they are wrong for doing so and saying they do not care for their animals... That is just rediculously wrong and close minded, not to mention rude and out of line....

I don't ever remember saying it was a "fact" sand should not be used. I have just stated several different ways that I do not understand anyones thinking behind it being "natural" and ok to use when there is so much evidence of the contrary. I simply did research that I have done multiple times before and continued to find the same extremely convising information. But even that cannot compare to the pictures in this post and other of actual cases. Robin was convinced that playsand will not harm them and that the pictures posted waere not from sand impaction. If that was her blind opinion that is one thing, but when the owner says they used a specific playsand and found clumps of sand in the organs, how can you argue it??

Again, about saying people are "wrong" for using sand. I never said that. I feel that the opinions expressed in this thread FOR sand were extremely unconvincing and ignoring points against sand.

What I think is rude and out of line is being called narrow minded for not agree with someone elses point way back in this thread.

P.S. I am not trying to start "fights" here, so don't get the wrong idea about my tones or anything.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I am a breeder. granted I have not been breeding for long but I care about every single one of my leos. I choose not to use sand because of the risk factor and because paper towles are alot easier and cleaner. I have used sand with other herps with out problems. I don't recomend sand for leos but I in no way think that if someone uses sand that they do not care what happens to their leos. That is just absurd.

Brandy I wasn't trying to say that. I know I worded it wrong and I know everyone here cares about their leos. I explained it a little more in the previous post.

 

[robin]

i love bringing out the "best" in people!!!

gregg, gimme some dap

 

[Scott&Nikki]

i love bringing out the "best" in people!!!

gregg, gimme some dap

Haha. It is amazing how much your words can slip up after a while of talking about the same subject.

 

[robin]

my words didnt slip up

 

[LeopardLunatic]

No, the fact of the matter is that most leos die from impaction because of improper husbandry... Like Robin said, it is easy to point the finger at a substrate... Most people will not put blame where it should be focused... Another factor for a reptiles digestive system not working properly is heat issues...

The fact is, there are no facts to back up what you are saying... There is nothing to say that the sand itself caused the play sand impactions... There are other factors that contribute to impaction...

Trust me, anyone can tell you, I used to be very against sand substrates until I got some solid facts... I still wont use it but thats my choice...

I have a question for anti loose substrate people...
What do you use in your humid hides or lay boxes???

what i said came out wrong i wasnt blaming sand because i use sand in moast of my vivs i was saying that the people that have posted pics and links show leos that look like they were impacted by playsand but yes i beleive its not the substrate but the housing conditions. Also i use moss in my hides.

 

[robin]

what i said came out wrong i wasnt blaming sand because i use sand in moast of my vivs i was saying that the people that have posted pics and links show leos that look like they were impacted by playsand but yes i beleive its not the substrate but the housing conditions. Also i use moss in my hides.

all but one case (which was lottz) it was NOT playsand. it was bark or calcium based "digestible sand"

 

[Scott&Nikki]

all but one case (which was lottz) it was NOT playsand. it was bark or calcium based "digestible sand"

Whoa... you do not know that. If it happened with Lottiz, I am sure it has happened in the past. You can't say Lottiz's case is the only one. If what you mean is the other pics in this thread and recent threads, yes, those were other substrates than playsand.

 

[robin]

i mean the links to photos were of impaction by wood or "digestable" calcium sand. the one of lottiz's from the type of sand she describes, is playsand. i am sure her's is not the only case. what i am saying is there are allot of photos of other substrates but not many of PLAYSAND substrates.

and i do know that because if you go back and look at the links with the photos it says under each photo what the animal was impacted with.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I agree, Robin. It was just the way you worded it made it sound like her's was the only case. I have seen/heard (from reliable sources at least - not counting internet searches) of 6 impactions: 1 playsand, 3 calci-sand, 1 bark, and 1 was some kind of small rock-type substrate my vet told me about.

 

[GeckoMandi]

Not to throw the debate off topic...but has anyone ever read this before? I just noticed it the other day.

http://vmsherp.com/LCKeepingLeopards.htm

scroll down and read about their "grit"

Does anyone know if this has been proved to show aid in digestion?

I'm not for or against it, nor it would not make me buy from them.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Not to throw the debate off topic...but has anyone ever read this before? I just noticed it the other day.

http://vmsherp.com/LCKeepingLeopards.htm

scroll down and read about their "grit"

Does anyone know if this has been proved to show aid in digestion?

I'm not for or against it, nor it would not make me buy from them.

The only place I recall reading that sand aids in digestion is on a Cali-sand bag. I understand the thinking behind it, but I have no clue. I'd love to hear if anyone knows more about that.

 

[ReptileMan27]

Never heard that before besides for stupid calcium sand, it was promoted as safe and because it has calcium in it, if the leo/or other lizard eats it, its good for them. The problem is leos that may be suffering from MDB, eat it to get calcium, and end up dieing from MBD and impaction. I agree that in SOME cases that its the owners fault if a leo dies from sand impaction BUT that doesent explain all cases. To say its the owners fault is just as bad as saying the owner doesent care about their leo because they use sand. I had a freind that lost his leo years ago to play sand, and I know for a fact he took great care of his leo besides the sand. After the leo died, he still didnt believe the sand is what killed it, so he took it to a vet and they confirmed it was sand impaction that killed it . Their are legit cases out their, and yes their are ones that are the owners fault. So basically like I have been saying all along, their is that risk,why take it?.

Of course these are my opinions, other people look at it as if they care for their leo properly, the chance is less of sand impaction, but to me, its just not worth the risk of my leos life.

 

[PaulSage]

Folks, let's ease up on the profanity. I'm too tired to send you all PMs.

 

[robin]

where?

 

[ReptileMan27]

Folks, let's ease up on the profanity. I'm too tired to send you all PMs.

huh?, I agree this topic has gotten a little out of hand, but I dont think anyone has really insulted or attacked anyone, atleast that I have seen.

 

[PaulSage]

huh?, I agree this topic has gotten a little out of hand, but I dont think anyone has really insulted or attacked anyone, atleast that I have seen.

Where did I say anything about insults or attacks? I don't care if people can't have a discussion without resulting in insults and/or attacks on each other. In fact, I pretty much expect it--especially in yet another great sand debate. The PROFANITY needs to stop (the "s" word) as it is against the rules.

 

[Gregg M]

To say its the owners fault is just as bad as saying the owner doesent care about their leo because they use sand. I had a freind that lost his leo years ago to play sand, and I know for a fact he took great care of his leo besides the sand. After the leo died, he still didnt believe the sand is what killed it, so he took it to a vet and they confirmed it was sand impaction that killed it.

No, its not the same... Someone can be doing something wrong in their husbandry and not realize it... Its not the same as saying someone does not care about their leos... Its not even in the same ball park... Many people have lost a pet they cared about due to them not knowing they were doing something wrong...

And as far as your friend loosing a leo to play sand impaction, I am sure it was confirmed by a vet... But the vet can not tell you either way what actually contributed to the impaction... There is no way the vet could have been able to tell if poor husbandry caused the impaction or not...


Ever notice how the majority of people who say they have a leo who is sand impacted are usually "newer" or inexperienced keepers or that the leo was in the hands of a keeper who was inexperienced before hand???

Good call on the profanity Paul...:main_thumbsup:

 

[Russ S]

Potty mouths!