sand impaction

[Gregg M]

Like I said, I do not think it should be straight sand... I feel it should be mixed with a potting soil to get the effect of what they may live on in the wild... And again, full grown adults only... Not hatchlings or juviniles...

Another thing I feel is that if your ADULT leo dies of an impaction, you may need to look more into your husbandry... Sub-par husbandry will cause the majority of the problems us keepers run into...

Christian, why were you keeping your AFT on sand??? Talk about a gecko that rarely sees sand in its natural habitat...
AFTs need more humidity than leos... Are you sure the impaction was not caused more by not being properly hydrated???

 

[geckofreak570]

someone gave it to me and i did not no anything about afts but he lived six years

 

[ReptileMan27]

you know what? **** happens no matter how well we take care of our geckos. the "crystallization" happens with calci-sand (or similar products) not play sand.
your experience of one leopard gecko leads me to believe you have yet to experience any of this, and in this i am excluding the sand, because any setup can have harmful properties.

" Substrates:

Many Leopard Gecko keepers use sand, orchid bark or terrarium carpets as a substrate for vivarium tanks, and these are OK for adults. Be aware that it is a known fact that some Leopard Geckos, (especially babies) have died from intestinal impaction resulting from consuming too much sand while "striking" at crickets. Only full-grown adults should be kept on sand, and it should be the ultra-fine, non-silica, playground variety. Do NOT use calcium sand! Leopard Geckos' digestive system is very short, and there is a risk that the calcium cannot dissolve completely, which can lead to intestinal impaction. If bark is used, it should be of a size that cannot be swallowed, and changed out regularly due to it's tendency to harbor bacterial growth. Carpet may cause the lizard’s toenails to become stuck and tear. Another choice is slate or clay tiles as an easy-to-clean, decorative and safe substrate. Never use fish tank pebbles or walnut shells, as they can be extremely harmful to their digestive system, and may even cause death if they are swallowed. Most experienced breeders will debate which substrate works best and is safer, but nearly all of us will agree that paper towels or newspaper are the number 1 choice... they are safe, and very inexpensive to use. "

from http://www.goldengategeckos.com/careleopard.html

when marcia gets back from dallas. i will ask her to tell you from where and who she got her info from.. which is valid and from reliable research.

Many breeders use sand lol, name a few?. I sure as heck dont know of any, talked to many in the past and none of them use it. Marcia does not use or reccomend the use of sand, have you read any of the other sand debates on here?. Your comment, **** Happens, is pretty sad and irresponsible:main_no:. when their is a case of a leo dieing from newspaper or paper towels, get back to me, intill then stop trying to give safe things a bad rap to make you feel better about sand:main_no:.

Im sorry if im being rude but it drives me crazy and makes me question the love for the animals, when someone is willing to use something that has killed before:main_thumbsdown:

 

[Gregg M]

Many breeders use sand lol, name a few?. I sure as heck dont know of any, talked to many in the past and none of them use it. Marcia does not use or reccomend the use of sand, have you read any of the other sand debates on here?. Your comment, **** Happens, is pretty sad and irresponsible:main_no:. when their is a case of a leo dieing from newspaper or paper towels, get back to me, intill then stop trying to give safe things a bad rap to make you feel better about sand:main_no:.

Im sorry if im being rude but it drives me crazy and makes me question the love for the animals, when someone is willing to use something that has killed before:main_thumbsdown:

Man, these sand debates always end up the same way... When you have seen one, you seen them all...

Reptileman, when I first started to use the forums years ago, I had some of the same arguments you have on sand... I also thought I had an answer for everything... The truth is, I did not... No one here knows all there s to know about leopard geckos in the wild or in captivity...

Reptiles have ingested paper towels and the inks from news paper can be toxic to reptiles...

I believe what Robin meant by "**** happens" is that you can be the best keeper in the world but your leos are still at risk of something going down that usually does not take place... For instance one of Kellis leos choked on a shed... Should we not let leos eat their shed because of that??? Even safe can be hazardous... Meal worms and crickets have even impacted leos... Should we stop feeding them hard shelled insects too???

There are plenty of breeders that use or have used sand as a substrate at one time or another... I bet there are a few of them that frequent this site...

There are also plenty of keepers who have used sand without a single issue... How do you explain that??? I have a strong feeling that improper husbandry has a lot to do with captive leos becoming impacted with sand...

Not enough calcium and vitamin intake would force a leo to take in extra grains of sand... Not being hydrated enough would contribute to a leo not being able to pass objects properly that would normally go through the digestive system without an issue...

I guess my point is, is that everyone has something to say about the way others keep their animals... People should worry more about their own captive husbandry... Just because you do not like how someone does something, it does'nt mean it wrong... It's just not for you...

I was pretty close minded on this subject and many others, but I have learned to be a bit more open and to take what people have to say a bit more seriously, even if I do not agree 100%...

I am not a sand advocate and I CHOOSE not to use it but I will not knock anyone for using it anymore...

 

[robin]

Many breeders use sand lol, name a few?. I sure as heck dont know of any, talked to many in the past and none of them use it. Marcia does not use or reccomend the use of sand, have you read any of the other sand debates on here?. Your comment, **** Happens, is pretty sad and irresponsible:main_no:. when their is a case of a leo dieing from newspaper or paper towels, get back to me, intill then stop trying to give safe things a bad rap to make you feel better about sand:main_no:.

Im sorry if im being rude but it drives me crazy and makes me question the love for the animals, when someone is willing to use something that has killed before:main_thumbsdown:

well i know kelli has kept leos on sand, marcia has umm i know others as well. but in that quote that is not me.. i quoted that from marcias site. so ask her when she gets back from dallas :yes:

and quit with the holier than thou routine jeeze

how long have you been keeping or breeding leos or both? how many leos have you had/kept?

 

[robin]

I believe what Robin meant by "**** happens" is that you can be the best keeper in the world but your leos are still at risk of something going down that usually does not take place... For instance one of Kellis leos choked on a shed... Should we not let leos eat their shed because of that??? Even safe can be hazardous... Meal worms and crickets have even impacted leos... Should we stop feeding them hard shelled insects too???

ya gregg, you got it. thats what i meant :yes: thank you

 

[robin]

Yeah, thats why I put that up there... There is a huge difference between fine grain play sand and that crap the pet stores push on their new gecko owners...

I got yo back Robin!!! LOL



Robin, you need to get some Atheris ceratophora... They are the perfect disposal unit for deformed or stilborn hatchlings...

gregg i am not breeding anymore. well not right now. gotta wait for my eye to heal :yes:
(pppssst and as soon as we buy a new house which should be like very soon)

 

[robin]

But my Hue bold stripe ate play sand and died, not calcium sand...

was it fine grain non silica ( i generally sift it as well) playsand?

 

[robin]

things is that all people that have kept there animal on sand and it dies, automatically says "it died of a sand impaction". why? because that is the easiest excuse. yet other than the fact they kept them on sand they have no proof but "just because they were on sand". yet no necropsy had been done to determine that (now not all cases you can clearly see lottiz did do a necropsy on the body). people chose how they died instead of knowing for sure.god forbid they say "it was my fault, a husbandry issue... i didnt feed the animal enough vitamins and calcium" or "i didnt keep it watered" or "i kept a hatchling/juvenile on calcium sand/play sand".
and then you get the web experts, those who have kept one or two leos for a short time and have limited experience but let me tell you they know more than EVERYONE.

 

[Lottiz]

was it fine grain non silica ( i generally sift it as well) playsand?

I'm from Sweden, we don't got your therms...RÃ¥dasand 0.3mm... beach sand, play sand... fin grain any way.

 

[berra292]

its the same all the time when it comes to discussion about sand,someone use it someone dont.myself i use slate.tiles,and paper for all my geckos. except for my soon 15 year old female she have lived on sand all her life and i gonna have her on sand for the rest of her life.she have never have any problem with that.( maybe i didnt know better 15 years ago when i bought her as a juvenile .but you learn something new everyday.) and i dont put any new gecko i buy on sand cause its still a risk.

 

[robin]

i am not sure what that is but it is clear that whatever kind of sand it was on. that your gecko died of some kind of sand impaction.

 

[robin]

its the same all the time when it comes to discussion about sand,someone use it someone dont.myself i use slate.tiles,and paper for all my geckos. except for my soon 15 year old female she have lived on sand all her life and i gonna have her on sand for the rest of her life.she have never have any problem with that.( maybe i didnt know better 15 years ago when i bought her as a juvenile .but you learn something new everyday.) and i dont put any new gecko i buy on sand cause its still a risk.

that is understandable and very reasonable. currently all of my leos are on paper. i have 100+ leos so it is easier that way. but i have kept them on sand in the past, without incident

 

[LeopardLunatic]

The fact of the matter as we have seen is that most leos that have died of impaction due to playsand NOT a sand specifically made for reptiles.

 

[ReptileMan27]

well i know kelli has kept leos on sand, marcia has umm i know others as well. but in that quote that is not me.. i quoted that from marcias site. so ask her when she gets back from dallas :yes:

and quit with the holier than thou routine jeeze

how long have you been keeping or breeding leos or both? how many leos have you had/kept?

I have been keeping leos and other herps from 12+ years, not new to the hobby or sand debate at all. Im not saying people havent kept leos on sand succesfully, but others have lost leos to it. So why would you even risk it?. When I was new to the hobby, I kept my leos on sand, but once I found out the dangerous if it, stopped using it. I never said I know it all, I still learn new stuff all the time, one of the reasons I love the hobby so much. If someone knows that risk of using sand and uses it anyway, thats their choice but when people advertise it as this safe digestible substrate, that bothers me.

Im sorry is I angered anyone, wasnt my point, this is one of my pet peas, I just will never understand a reason to risks somethings life for something as dumb as substrate?.


to each their own, or however the saying goes

 

[Gregg M]

The fact of the matter as we have seen is that most leos that have died of impaction due to playsand NOT a sand specifically made for reptiles.

No, the fact of the matter is that most leos die from impaction because of improper husbandry... Like Robin said, it is easy to point the finger at a substrate... Most people will not put blame where it should be focused... Another factor for a reptiles digestive system not working properly is heat issues...

The fact is, there are no facts to back up what you are saying... There is nothing to say that the sand itself caused the play sand impactions... There are other factors that contribute to impaction...

Trust me, anyone can tell you, I used to be very against sand substrates until I got some solid facts... I still wont use it but thats my choice...

I have a question for anti loose substrate people...
What do you use in your humid hides or lay boxes???

 

[Scott&Nikki]

It almost seems to me that the difference of opinions kinda correlates to the kind of owner. It seems that most of the people here that are FOR sand are breeders, or have been breeders. It is almost as if you have so many that it isn't as big of a deal to you to risk it. I have my leo for a pet. Purely a pet. It is almost like there is a different mentality for each person's reasoning behind it. Having 1 leo that is a pet to me, I am not going to subject it to anything I feel may cause a problem. With what greg said, no, I am not going to stop feeding it crickets or mealies because it has caused impaction in the past. I obviously cannot take away their food, but I can use a substrate that I know will not cause a problem. What I am saying is, even if sand is perfectly ok if used correctly, it is still a risk I am not willing to take. If others want to take the risk, I suppose that is up to them. I just don't understand why anyone would. If people are going to critize some of us for our lack of experience, we "newer" people might as well just stay out of any thread, unless it is a question we are asking. My lack of experience does not change facts I have read/seen in my reasearch and from those with experience on this forum. It is clear that some have no had problems, but some have. If only 0.5% have problems, that is still too much for me to risk it when there are so many other cheaper and easier alternatives.

 

[ReptileMan27]

No, the fact of the matter is that most leos die from impaction because of improper husbandry... Like Robin said, it is easy to point the finger at a substrate... Most people will not put blame where it should be focused... Another factor for a reptiles digestive system not working properly is heat issues...

The fact is, there are no facts to back up what you are saying... There is nothing to say that the sand itself caused the play sand impactions... There are other factors that contribute to impaction...

Trust me, anyone can tell you, I used to be very against sand substrates until I got some solid facts... I still wont use it but thats my choice...

I have a question for anti loose substrate people...
What do you use in your humid hides or lay boxes???

I use wet paper towels for my humid hides,alot easier and works:main_thumbsup:

 

[Gregg M]

It almost seems to me that the difference of opinions kinda correlates to the kind of owner. It seems that most of the people here that are FOR sand are breeders, or have been breeders. It is almost as if you have so many that it isn't as big of a deal to you to risk it. I have my leo for a pet. Purely a pet. It is almost like there is a different mentality for each person's reasoning behind it. Having 1 leo that is a pet to me, I am not going to subject it to anything I feel may cause a problem.

Man, thats a pretty crappy finger to point at the breeders on this site... Do you honestly feel that the breeders here do not care about the animals they produce??? That is what you are implying with this post, is it not??? I know I am not speaking for myself when I say that my breeders and all of the neonates I produce are treated as pets, not disposable items... I think you took it a bit far with that statement...

I can use a substrate that I know will not cause a problem. What I am saying is, even if sand is perfectly ok if used correctly, it is still a risk I am not willing to take.

That is fine and very understandable...

If people are going to critize some of us for our lack of experience, we "newer" people might as well just stay out of any thread, unless it is a question we are asking. My lack of experience does not change facts I have read/seen in my reasearch and from those with experience on this forum. It is clear that some have no had problems, but some have. If only 0.5% have problems, that is still too much for me to risk it when there are so many other cheaper and easier alternatives.

It has nothing to do with someone being new and adding their opinion to a thread... We can all learn from someone else at one point and I know I respect other peoples opinions, even if I do not agree...

The problem is when anyone starts saying somthing is a fact when it is, in reality, just their opinion... This goes for newer and experienced keepers... If what you have read is enough for you to not use a certain substrate or food item, that is your choice... If your choice is valid to you, that is all that matters...

Trust me, I do not use sand and never will... But you also can not point at someone and say they are wrong for doing so and saying they do not care for their animals... That is just rediculously wrong and close minded, not to mention rude and out of line....

I use wet paper towels for my humid hides,alot easier and works:main_thumbsup:

Thats great... It does work... I use it for my hatchlings and juviniles... The only thing is that laying females need a substrate to dig in in order to lay their eggs... So a loose substrate will have to be used a some point if you plan on breeding...

 

[NaughtyDawg]

It almost seems to me that the difference of opinions kinda correlates to the kind of owner. It seems that most of the people here that are FOR sand are breeders, or have been breeders. It is almost as if you have so many that it isn't as big of a deal to you to risk it.

That is a very low shot.....

People use what works for them.. There are a lot of people on this form that use perlite. Every egg I put on perlite has dried out on me, that doesn't mean I condemn anyone for using it or point it out as a high risk item.