THE BLACK HOLE

[A&M Gecko]

Alberto what did you cross for this morph? I only ask because for the nova and dreamsicle you listed what was crossed to create it and I think a lot of us are curious what you paired together.

Tha father is an enigma 100% het raptor bred with a group of 2 females with 2 mack snow albino and 1 non albino but all possible het raptor.

And one shouldn't have to say red eye tremper albino mack snow enigma at all. You could call it an enigma mack tremper.

Well, then that will be wrong because this is not only an enigma mack tremper but it also has raptor in it. at least the redeye trait of the raptor, maybe not the patternless part which i think is not possible to get with the enigma genes crossed in it because they always hatch with dots.

I just think it can get confusing very fast. What happens when we have enigma mack rw's and bells? Will we have three diff names for the same thing?

I repeat, those are not just albino, but raptors also. Isn't out there already a different name for the redeyebell? Is Radar sounds like some you know? Yes it may sound confusing but if we all do our part on making information available about what each name is I beleive things will be easier for everyone and not more complicated like some people may think.
Alberto

 

[preacherman]

Alberto & Matt,

Congratulations on the exciting new combos that you have produced so far this season. It has already been an exciting year, and the year is just beginning. I'm sure that you've put a great deal of work into your animals, and I can certainly understand your excitement. I wish you the best of luck throughout the rest of the season.

 

[Kotsay1414]

First off I just wanted to say congrats to Alberto and Matt. I know a lot of hard work has gone into creating all of the combination morphs you have made.

I would also like to comment on the naming of different morphs. I know some people are upset with the naming, I am not. Like Alberto said earlier, it is a lot easier to say Black Hole rather than Mack Snow Enigma Eclipse. The one thing which will help with keeping track of the different names of combination morphs is documenting it. Alberto said he will be working on a web page to help show all the different names with what they are. I know I have been keeping the Leopard Gecko Wiki up to date with all of the different releases.

Once again, congrats guys!

 

[snared99]

I love the idea o f catchy/easy names for new combos. It does make labeling and record keeping a bit easier. The only flaw to alot of names is as a community we need to conform to a system and not use a million names for the same morph/combo. I would also disagree we are like the ball python market, I would agree for the most part everyone is at the very least business collegues whom share the same passion.

I think the work that matt and alberto do is a huge step for this hobby and commend them for their work in all these crazy new morphs!

The naming system will always be a system of debate, but do we really need to argue and bicker? I hope we can all come to a semi-conformed system which can be easier used by everyone who wants to enjoy this great hobby

 

[LadyGecko]

That is a beautiful baby

It will be really interesting to see what it turns out to look like as an adult

Congrats to Matt and Alberto on the start of both of your exciting new year!!

 

[miamimike]

Just wanted to say thanks to Matt and Alberto (as well as many others) for working so hard and contributing so much to my education IN these and my addiction TO these incredibly interesting animals!....I ALWAYS look forward to what beauty your next posts may bring me and this awesome hobby!

I have had the opportunity to communicate with Matt and Alberto quite often about all these new morphs (or combinations there of) and have always found them extremely forth coming with info and more than a pleasure to talk with.
Ego?....hmmm.....I can honestly say I have got nothing to say negative on that subject about either of you. I think we all have egos.....it is part of what drives us to create things ....to create new morphs...to create the most colorful....the healthiest.....the happiest.....it is not ALL that drives us...but it is certainly present in everyone I know or have met in the gecko world thus far. Again, it is not a negative trait in my mind (although an ego out of control can be)....it is part of our individuality.

I, personally, like the idea of more simple, "lay-man's terms" names for some of these complex combinations as well. I think we are all capable of learning some "common" names for some of these morphs/combinations and at the same time maybe have "trade" names that are very discriptive for the die-hard hobbyists. Maybe it is because I am always more interested in attracting new people to this incredible hobby than intimidating them with long complex names. And believe me....long drawn-out complex names DO intimidate people. I have seen this first hand with almost 20 years experience in the African cichlid marketplace. If you want to see someone turn tale and run in an aquarium store....start telling them that the beautiful fish that they are looking at and interested in is an Aulonocara Jacobfriebergi from Chipoke rocks!....wow sounds impressive huh?....not really...just confusing and intimidating to a lot of people. Now call it a Butterfly peacock....hey...that they can relate to!....hooked!

I am a relative new-comer to this hobby....and can tell you that the comradery I have experienced and the open, honest sharing of information I have seen is what hooked me on this hobby the most. This forum has had a lot to do with both aspects for me. I am all for an open honest discussion on names.....I just hope that because some are driven to create new exciting morphs and put easier names to them....that we dont brand them egomaniacs.....I, personally, think that would be very counter-productive to a new found hobby and addiction that I am very very fond of......
Just my humble opinion.....(very very humble)

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

Hey Mike, no matter what side anyone is on, that was truely well said, I see both sides of the story, but to me it all comes down to is to each his own, and I think if someone wants to get a long morph combination name a shorter easier to remember name then that is there call, as long as they advertise what exactly it is when selling it. I dont see any problem with that, as I don't see a problem with someone using the complete name and refusing to give their combo a shorter "nickname".

 

[bleeding_sarcasm]

I agree, It comes down to what you personally use and prefer, and I also felt that associating the naming with an ego was making a judgment that was not very nice.

Also, My comparison to ball pythons was ONLY to that each combination has an individual name. That is said as a casual observer who knows NOTHING about ball pythons, let alone the industry, and I would need to look up what each morph is. I feel that someone who was a casual observer of leopard geckos [not hardcore geeks like ourselves] might find them self in a similar situation.

I apologize if anyone was offended by my posts, as they were not meant to single anyone out. I say go for it, as long as the genetics are listed in the ad/posts, then it doesnt really matter what you call it.

 

[GeckoStud]

Nice!

 

[BettaDragon]

I have but a small opinion on the naming argument. I used to be into betta breeding (never successfully bred because I had bad luck with males) and I learned just about every single strain and how it was made. There was a big feud (and there still is to some extent) about the naming. The official people wanted to keep the long names that revealed the genetics of the fish. However, common names won over. The problem with the common names is that breeders started claiming names to be their own and if anyone used their name, they'd have a hissy fit. This is partially because bettas often do not breed true and if you get a betta from a bad breeder, the fishes babies may turn out nothing like the parents. The problem this caused was that there were multiple common names for fish that looked exactly identical which often led to more confusion than the long names. Not sure if this would be an issue in the gecko world but from my experience in the betta world, common names are a double edged, razor sharp sword.

As for the gecko pictured, he's a beauty and I'd love to see him full grown.

 

[malt_geckos]

It'll take time, but new names need to be created anyway. There will always be change which is why we will never stop learning about genetics and our leopard geckos. The names will take a little while to catch on with everyone, but I think we can handle it.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

What an AWESOME gecko! You should be very proud and thrilled that you produced it!!! So please don't let any of this 'naming debate' rain on your victory parade!!! It's just a debate... I don't see anybody judging any particular individual.

I think the morph naming problem will lie on the next individual who produces one... will they call it a "Black Hole", or something different that they think is a good name to call it? This is what makes it so hard for everyone to understand and keep track of. There are other breeders out there that do that, and I think this is where individual egos play into it. Then we all have to try and remember what each individual breeder calls their version of the same morph. It's confusing and frustrating!

 

[PrototypeGeckos]

What an AWESOME gecko! You should be very proud and thrilled that you produced it!!! So please don't let any of this 'naming debate' rain on your victory parade!!! !

Ditto!! Awesome Gecko!!

I think the morph naming problem will lie on the next individual who produces one... will they call it a "Black Hole", or something different that they think is a good name to call it? This is what makes it so hard for everyone to understand and keep track of. There are other breeders out there that do that, and I think this is where individual egos play into it. Then we all have to try and remember what each individual breeder calls their version of the same morph. It's confusing and frustrating!

That is where I am at in this whole situation, I think the first person who makes a combination morph should have the right to place a name on it, and I think that name should be used but the other breeders who produce the same combo after that. For the most part that is what I see happening in the BP market, once someone produces a new combo they "name" it and MOST people follow from that point on. There is a few who stray that I have seen, but they are the exception not the rule, and if it stays that way with Leos, then I don't see a problem.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK. What I'd like to see is THIS thread dedicated to this beautiful new gecko, and the 'morph naming debate' taken over to the appropriate thread: http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=16120

(that applies to me, too!)

 

[leolover2]

Awesome gecko!!

 

[bleeding_sarcasm]

Hahha, and in relation to "the black hole" anyone else associate it with raider fans?
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object/article?o=0&f=/g/a/2001/01/11/raiderfans.DTL

 

[A&M Gecko]

I have but a small opinion on the naming argument. I used to be into betta breeding (never successfully bred because I had bad luck with males) and I learned just about every single strain and how it was made. There was a big feud (and there still is to some extent) about the naming. The official people wanted to keep the long names that revealed the genetics of the fish. However, common names won over. The problem with the common names is that breeders started claiming names to be their own and if anyone used their name, they'd have a hissy fit. This is partially because bettas often do not breed true and if you get a betta from a bad breeder, the fishes babies may turn out nothing like the parents. The problem this caused was that there were multiple common names for fish that looked exactly identical which often led to more confusion than the long names. Not sure if this would be an issue in the gecko world but from my experience in the betta world, common names are a double edged, razor sharp sword.

As for the gecko pictured, he's a beauty and I'd love to see him full grown.

If we stop using common name at this point were we are now try to sell some eublepharis macularius t positive albino red eyes snow around.

 

[yellermelon]

Alberto..Ill take it no matter the name oh yeah I probably cant afford it though lol. No matter the name the past 3 geckos you guys have posted on this forum were spectacular and I applaud you guys for creating such awsome geckos!

 

[A&M Gecko]

So please don't let any of this 'naming debate' rain on your victory parade!!!

Victory parade? No comment.

I think the morph naming problem will lie on the next individual who produces one... will they call it a "Black Hole", or something different that they think is a good name to call it? This is what makes it so hard for everyone to understand and keep track of. There are other breeders out there that do that, and I think this is where individual egos play into it. Then we all have to try and remember what each individual breeder calls their version of the same morph. It's confusing and frustrating!

Weather you get confused or frustrated Marcia you or anyone else cannot make people do what you wish to make things easier. We, all leopard gecko breeder are really proud to produce such of nice animals and I tell you I am very happy when people say A&M Gecko line as I am sure you are when they say Golden Gecko line. We can be all day here to talk about this and name calling things. If we have now tangerine tornado, electric line or who knows what else is because people that have produced are proud that they did and they think their line is different from the others. I respect that and since this is something I care about I try to learn as much as possible. I now know that the electric line is a beautiful line of tangerine coming from Kelli and the tornado line is a beautiful animals coming from the urban gecko, I respect it, I learned it and weather I agree on it or not I respect it.
Alberto

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Alberto, the only point I was trying to make was, this beautiful gecko that Matt produced should be something that he (and you) should be very proud of... and not to let the feelings and opinions of what the gecko community thinks take the pride and joy away from it! I don't think this thread should be the place to discuss our opinions of this morph or what it's name is. There is another thread for this purpose.

You are right that no one of of us has any control over what other breeders do or what they choose to name their gecko morphs. But, maybe if all of us breeders can see how people really feel and think about how we are making them so confused, we might try to take this into consideration whenever a new combination morph is created.

Now, I would like to see THIS thread about a beautiful little gecko and not an argument.