The ugly truth about the Leo market...........grrrrr(rant)

[snared99]

Ok now there has been a hell of alot of bitching about the market as of the past few months, whether bitching about prices or quantity being flushed to the market. I personally do not beleive the prices are as important as the numbers that are being thrown out there IMO. Think about it is someone throws out on the market 50 tremper enigmas het raptor, how is that better then selling a nova for $400!!(sorry to use the enigma as a example). Now dont get me wrong both make for a shitty market, but get the fuck over the price this is a free market and people can sell their animals for what they want. If they decide to sell $5 SHCT and bought their male for $500 or so, who is really loosing out?? ANd these people will not be around long,,,shit how can they their money is being pissed away. I have only been doing this for 10 years, but i have noticed a trend. There will always be individuals selling cheaper then you, and there is nothing you can do about it...period! As long as quality is there, forget quantity. The reputable and quality breeder will be around for years to come.

So people need to quit bitching, sit back, and enjoy this thing we call a gecko HOBBY(not retirement fund).

PS- The is just a rant and not directed at anyone.

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Damnit Pat how did you reach into my head and know that i was going to sell my geckos for 4.79 shipped. LOL I can see your point and it is a valid bitch. But like you said it's about quality not quantity.

 

[whkrazyk]

I agree with alot of what you say, I do this for the fun, not the money, I just want to make enough to cover the expenses of my hobby(but if I make a little extra I wont mind :main_thumbsup For those who do this for a living, im sorry if I post a gecko cheaper than yours, but noone wants to buy from a nobody these days, where there is about 500 well known leo. breeders out there. I do what I have to, this is a community, but its also a market love it or hate it.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

PS- The is just a rant and not directed at anyone.

Somehow I have a hard time believing that! :main_angry:

Other than these couple statements, I'm not touchin' this topic again with a 10' Fuckin' pole...:main_thumbsdown:

 

[snared99]

Somehow I have a hard time believing that! :main_angry:

Other than these couple statements, I'm not touchin' this topic again with a 10' Fuckin' pole...:main_thumbsdown:

It is honestly not pointed at anyone, or i would have stated thus in the post. There has been alot of people complaining, so it is a general statment. I appologize if you took offense to it.

 

[Gregg M]

As long as quality is there, forget quantity. The reputable and quality breeder will be around for years to come.

Pat, I do agree with your post for the most part... This last statement is not 100% true though...

#1. From what I have seen lately, quality is not what most are looking for... Alot of the people in the buying market are looking for genetics... Why would someone want to buy a tremper enigma that is smokin for 200 bucks when they can buy a tremper enigma that is just Ok looking for 50 bucks??? They still get the genetics they are looking for...

#2. Why would someone buy a tremper enigma het RAPTOR for 200 bucks when they can buy a NOVA straight from the incubator at an eastcoast show (apparently on the westcoast as well) for 20 bucks???

Can you honestly say that shit like that will not affect even the best quality breeder in the hobby??? Not everyone does this as just a hobby... Some people out there depend on this hobby as an income...

Breeding these animals is NOT hard work at all... But it does cost a lot of money to buy quality breeding stock... But now, with all the fire sales and people selling wholesale to the public, the quality animals are being released at super low prices... This is what helps to crash the market as well... I think both your reasoning and mine go hand in hand in ripping down the market...

 

[whkrazyk]

#2. Why would someone buy a tremper enigma het RAPTOR for 200 bucks when they can buy a NOVA straight from the incubator at an eastcoast show (apparently on the westcoast as well) for 20 bucks???

Can you honestly say that shit like that will not affect even the best quality breeder in the hobby???

Wow if that really happend, thats outragous. I paid $800 dollars for a leo in feb., I just seen one for $180 in the classifieds. :main_laugh: Got my money's worth:main_thumbsdown:

 

[KelliH]

Pat, I do agree with your post for the most part... This last statement is not 100% true though...

#1. From what I have seen lately, quality is not what most are looking for... Alot of the people in the buying market are looking for genetics... Why would someone want to buy a tremper enigma that is smokin for 200 bucks when they can buy a tremper enigma that is just Ok looking for 50 bucks??? They still get the genetics they are looking for...

#2. Why would someone buy a tremper enigma het RAPTOR for 200 bucks when they can buy a NOVA straight from the incubator at an eastcoast show (apparently on the westcoast as well) for 20 bucks???

Can you honestly say that shit like that will not affect even the best quality breeder in the hobby??? Not everyone does this as just a hobby... Some people out there depend on this hobby as an income...

Breeding these animals is NOT hard work at all... But it does cost a lot of money to buy quality breeding stock... But now, with all the fire sales and people selling wholesale to the public, the quality animals are being released at super low prices... This is what helps to crash the market as well... I think both your reasoning and mine go hand in hand in ripping down the market...

It's very sad for me to see this happening. I might have to get out of the business and go get a job at Wal Mart or something. I'm not even joking. The problem is partially the economy, but the most fault lies with these money hungry breeders that think it's ok to produce 500 (or more) Engmas in a season not to mention all the non Enigma siblings they produce. People like that are selling normal hatchlings for $5 (or less even), and I am not talking about the Ron Trempers and the Mark Bells that have always mass produced for pet stores. I am speaking of the "private breeders" that are not even a legitimate business (meaning they do not pay taxes).

 

[DarthGekko]

I agree with Gregg.

That being said, supply greatly outweighs the demand for most leo morphs. In general the American public is just not spending money on fringe things as much as they used to. The days of spending borrowed money to purchase whatever they want are over. Analysts are saying that the Fed may not raise rates for several years to come because they are not worried about inflation. They are not worried about inflation because there is no growth in our economy! Growth = inflation!!!! Our economy is predicted to have an unemployment rate of 11% by year end. There is less discretionary money being spent on EVERYTHING. Recessions cause a lot of small businesses to disappear due to a large decrease in demand. Those businesses left standing are primed to gain market share when the economy recovers. When that will be? I don't know. What I do know is that as long as we are in this recession with increasing unemployment numbers we can expect prices to drop on everything....

I was a vendor at the San Diego Show recently and I didn't see many people walking out with animals. Whether they were 5 star or 1 star animals, there just wasn't that many sales being made as in previous years. Even if people were not breeding as many Leos as last year, prices would still fall because the demand for fringe products is waaaaay down. This is just how recessions work. It just sucks that we are going through the worst recession in decades and at the same time we have so many cool Leo morphs to work with

The breeders/hobbyists that survive this downturn and stick with their long term goals for their projects will still be around when this economy comes back.

I wonder if anyone has an economic history on the Reptile trade during our last recession which started prior to 911 and lasted through the first part of 2003. It would be an interesting indicator of what to possibly expect in the near future......

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

As the new guy on the block breeding geckos i find this to be a great time to start getting into the reptile trade. If you look at it like the stock market you come in buy low and sell high. As long as people have the cash flow to support their stocks even if they aren't selling as much, will greatly flourish when all this is said and done.

I could see that in the next 2 years line breeding will really explode due to people having more hold backs due to not being able to sell the animals. More combo morphs will be avail in the market as well. Which i both view as a good thing. All of my projects that i have going will be line breeding and working on different line bred morph combo's. IE Snow Bells ect.

As always remember that even in these troubled times that our geckos are our love and our passion so let's try to come together in these trying times. If you are having issues selling your animals try doing trades to improve upon your breeding stock for next year.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

The breeders/hobbyists that survive this downturn and stick with their long term goals for their projects will still be around when this economy comes back.

I agree with this as long as the goals are realistic. That's why some of us have been around 14-15 years!

 

[snared99]

Greg,
I agree with you point 100%, then some. I guess i was referring to morphs like SHCT or tang bell/tremper/lv, but even those are now going down. Im sick of hearing this economy bullshit! Ya it does count but makes every thing so much harder when some people wholesale tons to the public, of all kinds of morphs.

AND SHAME on those who are buying these whole sales lots!! Thanks for fueling the fire!!

 

[wilomn]

AND SHAME on those who are buying these whole sales lots!! Thanks for fueling the fire!!

LOL. Really? Shame on them for getting a good deal?

Seems quite easy to forget that just because one person feels one way others are free to feel differently to the point of diametric opposition.

ANYONE who breeds with the intention of selling to recoup any part of the investment they have made is NOT a hobby breeder. At the point you start counting pennies you are a business and should be treated as such.

Walmart drove a LOT of little guys out of business. How many of you shop there?

***** drove hundreds if not thousands of Mom and Pop Petshops right out of business. ******** and a few others helped out there. Where do you guys get your dogfood? Flea powder? Cat toys? From the last remaining privately owned shop that charges 2 bucks more or from the big chain that is CHEAPER but has the same quality?

IF your love is so great, IF you so want to make babies but SO hate the selling of them, GIVE the little guys away.

Oh no no no, not for nothing, they have value, we have invested in them, it costs money to make them and we need that back. If this is true, you are a BUSINESS not a hobby breeder.

If you don't like competition then free market enterprise is probably not where you should be.

 

[paulnj]

Getting a beer for an alcoholic is a harmless act too, but you then become the ENABLER

 

[snared99]

LOL. Really? Shame on them for getting a good deal?

Seems quite easy to forget that just because one person feels one way others are free to feel differently to the point of diametric opposition.

ANYONE who breeds with the intention of selling to recoup any part of the investment they have made is NOT a hobby breeder. At the point you start counting pennies you are a business and should be treated as such.

Walmart drove a LOT of little guys out of business. How many of you shop there?

***** drove hundreds if not thousands of Mom and Pop Petshops right out of business. ******** and a few others helped out there. Where do you guys get your dogfood? Flea powder? Cat toys? From the last remaining privately owned shop that charges 2 bucks more or from the big chain that is CHEAPER but has the same quality?

IF your love is so great, IF you so want to make babies but SO hate the selling of them, GIVE the little guys away.

Oh no no no, not for nothing, they have value, we have invested in them, it costs money to make them and we need that back. If this is true, you are a BUSINESS not a hobby breeder.

If you don't like competition then free market enterprise is probably not where you should be.

You clearly are not understanding that for some of us this is not just a hobby, but a way to support the family. And why the hell would you give them away??? Lets really trash the market while we are at it. And there are alot of costs that go into keeping a colony, so the prices have to stay at a certain level in order to maintain healthy animals. And for the record i have been in this 'free' market for 10 years, and enjoy the competition but not fire sales of geckos you work so hard to produce. Clearly you need more time in this hobby to learn these things.

 

[yellermelon]

money is being pissed away.

Ive heard this before somwhere? I dont complain about the economy..I failed govnmt and economics 2 times..Its obvios I dont get it lol!

 

[wilomn]

You clearly are not understanding that for some of us this is not just a hobby, but a way to support the family. And why the hell would you give them away??? Lets really trash the market while we are at it. And there are alot of costs that go into keeping a colony, so the prices have to stay at a certain level in order to maintain healthy animals. And for the record i have been in this 'free' market for 10 years, and enjoy the competition but not fire sales of geckos you work so hard to produce. Clearly you need more time in this hobby to learn these things.

Yes, of course, I am not understanding the complexities involved in the reproductive enterprises of leopard geckos.

You are a business. My post was not directed to you, but to the hobbiest who is complaining that they cannot make back the investment or costs of their ''hobby"

My understanding of "hobby" is something done solely for pleasure.

Working to make a living may be a pleasure, but it is not a hobby.

Make up your mind if you are a hobbiest or a business. You can't be both in this argument and have a valid point about one being bad and the other good.

Is it fellow hobbiests dropping prices? If so, then as a hobbiest yourself, what difference does it make? As a hobbyiest your only goal is to enjoy the lizards.

Is it other businesses dropping prices? If so, welcome to capitalism.

Of course, I've only been involved with reptiles and the breeding/selling of them for a few decades and doubtless have little idea of what "really" goes into either the hobby or business end of things. Thank you eversomuch for pointing that out.

 

[Sunrise Reptile]

Hey Pat, I think I misunderstood your initial post. Having read through your posts here, it looks to me like our opinions on this topic aren't so different after all. And having gone back and looked when I started a similar thread in the Ethics section, I never once mentioned the economy as some sort of excuse for why this is happening.

That being said, I think economy has nothing to do with this behavior, and someone wanting to earn a quick buck mass producing geckos and selling them at cut-throat prices has everything to do with the problem. And I agree that those who follow these practices probably won't be around long.

 

[snared99]

Even if you are a hobbist with a smaller collection it still costs money to keep up your hobby. So to some degree whether you are a business or a hobbist it doesnt matter you would still enjoy having your costs break even. Im sorry i did not know you have been in the business for decadeds i do not know your name and have no clue who you are. So how could i possible know you vast knowledge on the subject, when i have never heard of you???

 

[paulnj]

If you can buy animals at $15-$50 and produce high end morphs, that defeats the market. Multiply that by 5000 and you have the current state of the market.