Time for a serious discussion on breeding

[marauderhex]

------------------ Wall of text warning: Don't say I didn't warn you.------------

I have noticed a disturbing trend, and I'm sure it's nothing new. Hopefully somebody can answer this for me. Why does seemingly everybody who has a leopard gecko (or other common species) want to breed it? Seriously, there are more leos in the market now and up for adoption than there are good homes for them. What posesses people who can barely provide a suitable habitat for one gecko to want to create so many more? I try my damnedest to convince people NOT to breed common species like leos, beardies, and ball pythons. It's not because I hate small businesses, since I want to open my own brewery one day, but because I just want the animals to all have decent homes. It seems like such an uphill battle. Does anybody else out there actively try to dissuade people from breeding their pets?

 

[justindh1]

I don't see how I can try to talk someone from breeding when I do. The only time I do is when they need to research and gain more experience with leopard geckos or what ever. There are over 4 millions people born every day just in the US and a bit more than half of that die each year. There is always enough people to keep animals of various types. How many leos are breed each year? How many people keep multiple leos? To me, it's like arguing for apples and oranges. There's never going to be a right or wrong answer and it will never end. The market is just fine. There will always be high, middle, and low end leopard geckos. Prices and quantity seem pretty close to what they were when I first got into breeding.

 

[marauderhex]

Lack of experience is my main issue. My other issue is looking for quality homes. Sure, leos could be sold to anybody, but look at how many end up needing to be adopted or going to shelters, or worst of all (usually), ending up on Craigslist. I am one of those people who keep multiple leos, but I don't breed any unless people have specifically requested babies, and even then, I wait until I have multiple requests from trusted people.

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

Well there are a few aspects in which I assume a lot of people begin breeding Leopard geckos. One, they are a cheaper reptile to get into with many different pattern and color mutations available. This allows for the market to reach just about everyone who may want a designer reptile. Two, they are very easy and very prolific species which allows for even a first time breeder to be and feel successful with their endeavor. This is good and bad because it provides the means to learn and become more knowledgeable about what is involved in breeding but bad because the supply overwhelms the demand. Three, people will see someone selling a gecko for $500 and then they think this is a get rich quick type deal. The biggest thing people fail to understand is that in order to sell high priced animals, consumers want to see lineage of lines and your business. You can't buy your way into prolonged success in the reptile world. These are just three of the NEGATIVE reasons why everyone wants to breed leopard geckos. All of which only hurts the market value and quality of individual animals (generally speaking).

On the flip side, there are a LOT of breeders who I have sold top shelf animals to and they have maybe a 2.8 at best in their collection. These types of breeders do it for the joy and passion of trying to create something unique and appealing to their eye. The love of reptiles often draws people into the thrill of producing their own. Once you start producing your own it sparks the...wonder what happens if I...mentality. Me for instance, I breed purely for joy. Yea there is some money to be made, but ask anyone who I have worked with...money does not drive my business what so ever. I have 2 jobs and 2 kids, my business is my escape and means for teaching my kids responsibility and ethics.

One thing I suggest to people who tell me they are interested in breeding, that I think should be done more often, (also after elaborating on expenses and responsibility for babies) is to breed them and incubate only 1-2 clutches. See how it goes, if you enjoy it, can find homes, care for, and so on. Everyone always feels the need to incubate EVERY clutch. I know of MANY breeders who say they are swimming in babies....my response is always, STOP INCUBATING THEN. This allows you to have only the number of babies you can care for and also helps keep a more stable market since there is less of a need to "dump" off geckos and have "rack clearing" sales.

I think it would be beyond hypocritical for me to discourage breeding...so I do my best to encourage responsible and ethical breeding.

 

[katie_]

Dog and cat breeding can be lumped into this issue.

 

[marauderhex]

Dog and cat breeding can be lumped into this issue.

Hell, even human breeding could fall into this issue.

 

[Dimidiata]

Well if we are lumping....

Rat
Ferret
bettas
goldfish
Birds
and the list goes on for miles.

People want to breed for various reasons.

Some wanna play god
Some simply enjoy the hobby
Some want to get rich
Others want to be recognized
Some are just stupid and think they need to breed or that their animal MUST HAVE BABBIES
there are a multitude of reasons

Unlike many, i will gladly shell out a list of reasons someone shouldnt be breeding, im also one for providing stricter social views on what should and shouldnt be bred, example, petstore animals. Theres always a large debate on the subject of breeding them and honestly all i can say is that if someone put real effort into raising/hatching this perfect little animal, then why is it at a petstore.

 

[acpart]

I also feel that trying to discourage people breeding is in the long run going to lead to frustration. I try to educate in 2 directions: teach prospective breeders what's involved in terms of equipment, time, money etc. Also, teach prospective buyers to be more discerning about the health of the geckos they're buying. I'd hope that some prospective breeders will either go ahead with good knowledge of what's involved or decide to hold off and if prospective customers avoid the cheap, unhealthy (yes, I know not all cheap leos are unhealthy) leos, it may put the poor breeders out of business.

Aliza

 

[geckomaniac123]

I agree. There are too many common uneducated people breeding all sorts of species and first of all they are producing producing genetic junk because they breed any animal with any animal....they do not even select good breeding partners. People also don't realistically think about what they will do with the offspring and so they end up going to just any home willing to pay a few bucks. We should breed for the betterment of the species, not for the enrichment of our pockets.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

I agree that there are way too many people breeding these days, but to discourage it isn't my idea of promoting the keeping of reptiles. Like Travis said, you need to teach responsibility and ethics. Do this and we have a great future for generations to come. I love showing kids the animals at shows and thinking that one day they will be a reptile enthusiast because of that one guy who let them pet a gecko at a show.

I do have a question though. Why are you against Ball Python breeding in particular. Just interested to hear why if you don't mind me asking.

 

[marauderhex]

Was the bp question directed to me? If it was, it's because I see how many of them end up in shelters to be adopted out or how many are on Craigslist. All animals deserve a loving home with proper husbandry.

 

[Dimidiata]

Im just saying, there is nothing wrong with asking some ones and giving them reasons not to breed. We definitely shouldnt be encouraging about it to everyone who has the slightest idea that they may want to.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Several years ago when I was vending at the NARBC Anaheim Show, Dr. Philippe de Vosjoli was at my booth admiring my geckos and we got into a very compelling conversation on this subject. He asked, "Why does everyone feel the need to breed?" (He also breeds New Caledonian gecko species). When I answered for myself, all the reasons I breed seemed selfish and superficial. Doing it for the money never applied to either of us.

After nearly 17 years as a breeder, I find myself more and more regretful when I see how much stress it puts the geckos through. I watch robust females diminish towards the end of breeding season. I have lost females to egg-binding, and even males that have failed to thrive and starved to death during breeding season. Now, when I go into my reptile room I just want to hold them, love them, and cry.

 

[acpart]

I've had a range of experience with female breeders. For the most part, some of them get skinny during the peak of the season, but in Aug-Sept the eating goes way up and they gain back their weight. I wrote an article for Gecko Time a few years ago which included a chart of my female breeders' weights at the end of the season (Oct) and the beginning of the next season (April) and they were nearly unchanged. One of my females this season, in her second breeding season, suddenly developed signs of MBD with a curvy spine. Fortunately, she's only laid 1 clutch since then and seems to have re-absorbed the last egg. I was hand feeding her and daubing calcium paste around her mouth for weeks. She seems to be recovering: she can now catch her own food again and is walking around on her feet, not her belly. Needless to say, she will be retired as a breeder. I can definitely see that breeding takes more of a toll on some females than others.

Aliza

 

[Russellm0704]

Before I state anything, I am going to state that this was my first year breeding and in no way do i have the experience that most of the breeders have.

But, I just want people to know that no matter how many babies they have, it only takes one to become ill and your vet bill will sky rocket. I did have one baby i was suspicious about this year and he went straight to a vet. Luckily he was just a slow eater. But luckily for me one of my family members is a vet who specializes in reptiles and small animals. But most people do not have this connection. Most people just HOPE none of their animals can get sick. As i do agree that proper husbandry is a great preventative, perfectly healthy animals, including humans, get sick and die every single day.

The other issue that I do not think potential breeders have thought about is the responsibility of their animals. We all know that the market is flooded and selling geckos is not very easy when you are a new comer to the gecko community. I have the intention to keep every gecko I produce. This does not mean I do not want to sell most of my babies because I do. This means that I have enough racks, enough feeders, enough calcium/vitamin, enough TLC to take care of every single one of them whether I can find them all homes or not. PROPER HUSBANDRY is expensive in my opinion. There are only so many corners that can be cut.

What I really want potential breeders to grasp is that you have to LOVE doing it. Like most have said, in most cases it will not make enough money to support a lifestyle that we are happy with. If I didn't love working with these animals, then all the time, money, care, worry, etc that i put into my geckos would not be worth it. Honestly, the only way to know if you love it is to try it one year on a very small scale. Like Travis said, you DO NOT have to incubate all the eggs.

Some like to look at this as a hobby but i think that a hobby is something that you like to do every once in a while when you have free time. Well to me, geckos are a part of my life. Whether i have free time or not, they get fed, the get cleaned, they get fresh water, they get attention.

My final words: If you plan on breeding geckos for any reason other than for the love of the animals, please rethink it.

 

[AZdale]

I am glad Russellm spoke from the view of a first year breeder. I am now going to talk from the view of someone who is thinking about breeding. (Sorry, this is going to be long.)

This last year and a half I have had the great privilege of indulge in my reptile hobby. I now own two bearded dragons, two leopard geckos and I am saving up to buy 2 more leos and 3 crested geckos come november. Two other small notes about me is that I have a major in business and a minor in writing.

I am in really good hopes that I will be able to breed these animals and here are a few of my reasons.

1. I love observing the change in the animals behaviors when mating season comes around. I even plan on taping their behaviors and writing articles on what I observe.

2. I love the striving for certain genetics and the excitement and anticipation of waiting for an egg to hatch.

3. I currently have gotten into breeding fish a little and I like the idea of having an somewhat expensive hobby helping support itself.

That all said, I also want to express many things I am taking into consideration before I breed any of my animals.

Before I start breeding and I getting the animals food ready. Breeding can be expensive and one part of the is food. I have started a dubia roach colony and plan on having it in the thousand count before I breed anything. The last thing I want to happen is to have babies be skinny because I don't want to spend money on food. (I am mostly thinking about bearded dragon hatchlings that need to eat about 30-50 crickets a day). I also have an extensive mealworm breeding system going so that I should hopefully never run out. Doing maintenance on the food is almost as exhausting as the lizard maintenance can be, but again it is fascinating in many ways. I have also started growing an indoor garden to provide organic foods to the feeders so that my animals are getting the best quality.

The second thing I am considering is the market. I can buy a $500 male and two $500 females and produce amazing babies, but with out a respectable breeder name for myself I won't get nearly what they are worth. Before I put any males and females together I am going to go talk to the 4 independent pet stores in the area that I hold in high regards about what they would look for in reptiles. What ages do they buy them at and what types of quality do they want. Two of these stores carry all sorts of animals. I am guessing that they might be interested in leos carrying one recessive trait or possible a co dominant trait or a super form of a co dominant trait. Anything beyond that and they will not have the right customer to buy it.

I intend on breeding super snows and mack snows. With the animals I have in mind, the first few years I will be producing animals that are just super snows and mack snows with hets. I can possible sell these less rare morphs to these stores. I am willing to change my focus to a different type of morph if there is someone in the area already providing these animals. I have planned on snows just because I have not seen any in these four stores at all.

The two other stores are reptile only stores that will carry leos that are worth more in the $100 - $200 dollar range, but of course I am selling to them so I won't get that much, but making money isn't a focus. I plan on having a good discussion with all the stores before I breed anything. Based on their input and the number of current suppliers, I will decide if I will breed and how many females to breed.

During that time I will work on making a little bit of a name for myself to see if I can find an online outlet for my babies, but it will take a good amount of time to establish this.

Currently I am preparing my reptile room for this possible project. I am creating a breeding rack that can hold 14 adults and 25 hatchlings at a time. This is plenty more than I currently need, but I have also accepted that I am willing to keep every hatchling produced if necessary.

I would love to breed this next season, but I have accepted that it might not be a smart idea. I want to breed bearded dragons (fire red x super citrus), Dalmatian crested geckos, and and snow/super snow leopard geckos morphs.
I might breed all of them or possibly none of them. Hopefully, I can journal my entire experience to help with any new breeders as well.

I agree with the other members that do not discourage new breeders, but instead encourage them to do their research. But the focus of their research needs to be not only on the how to breed reptiles, but how to sell the reptiles. This would help them make wiser decisions and their research might talk them out of breeding.

Two site for possible new breeders are listed below. They provide some good information, but there is a lot more that is needed before starting.

http://www.geckotime.com/breeding-leopard-geckos-on-a-small-scale/

http://www.geckotime.com/breeding-on-a-small-scale-revisited/