Blizzard...? ID please

[katie_]

It frustrates me how insensitive people have become. I am guilty of acting this way as well but I at least am aware and attempt not to be so jaded.
It sucks getting burned by ignorant people but it should not be taken out on others.



Piggy back this point: If you cant be nice and civil when answering questions then dont answer. Heck this goes along with if you dont like the topic or dont have anything to contribute that would enhance the conversation then DONT POST! Easy as that...

This would make the forum a happier place

 

[M_surinamensis]

Piggy back this point: If you cant be nice and civil when answering questions then dont answer. Heck this goes along with if you dont like the topic or dont have anything to contribute that would enhance the conversation then DONT POST! Easy as that...

A counterpoint.

Sometimes the answers people want are not the answers they need. This will be especially true of neophytes, coming from a place of naivety, with only the most nascent awareness of the full meaning of the things they ask and the way they ask them.

"What morph is..." is a frequent example of a question that should rarely be asked. The phenotype has no bearing on the aesthetic appeal or pet-qualities of a given animal. There are more uncatalogued, unlabeled leopard gecko mutations living as pets than there are known qualities. There's some benefits to being able to communicate information effectively, but that's largely irrelevant in casual conversation. It only really matters if someone wants to breed the animal in question. It is entirely appropriate that such prospective breeders no longer have residual questions of that nature surrounding the animals they intend to use in their projects. Either they already know, or they aren't ready. It is one of the many things that a person should be knowledgeable of prior to any breeding attempt.

So comments like "There goes my chances of breeding diablos this year." should be met with opposition. The problem isn't the perceived incivility* of those who are taking the time out of their lives to assist by pointing out the impediment; it's entirely the selfish, demanding, short-cut seeking defensive attitudes of the individual who has been told that they are not in a position to do the thing they want to do. Katie got uppity and snide because others dared to suggest that she shouldn't seek immediate gratification of her whim. The problem here was not Dennis or Richard.

Significantly, the value of imparted information is distinct from the method of conveyance. The efficacy of any given approach as a conversational tactic can be wildly variable depending on the nuanced specifics of the intended audience, but there are definitely people who need to be beaten over the head with an idea before they're willing to recognize the veracity of something that isn't what they wanted to hear. It is a source of frequent amazement to me how a stubborn combatant can become an eager supplicant simply by abusing them of the notion that their contributions to a debate are of equal value.

But then, what do I know about being; rude, uncivil, curt, aggressive, insulting or mean? I'm a goddamn teddy bear with no experience dealing with people who ask questions just to hear the answers they want confirmed.


*"you're not ready" is hardly rude. It's an unemotional statement of fact.

 

[KelliH]

Katie, I am glad you are here on GeckoForums asking questions and trying to learn. We ALL were beginners once (and many here still are), and we ALL still have much to learn about leopard geckos. I respect the fact that you are reaching out for advice here, and I hope that you will continue doing that.

 

[JordanAng420]

Seamus nails it again.

I need a Seamus working at the animal hospital I work at.

 

[katie_]

A counterpoint.

Sometimes the answers people want are not the answers they need. This will be especially true of neophytes, coming from a place of naivety, with only the most nascent awareness of the full meaning of the things they ask and the way they ask them.

"What morph is..." is a frequent example of a question that should rarely be asked. The phenotype has no bearing on the aesthetic appeal or pet-qualities of a given animal. There are more uncatalogued, unlabeled leopard gecko mutations living as pets than there are known qualities. There's some benefits to being able to communicate information effectively, but that's largely irrelevant in casual conversation. It only really matters if someone wants to breed the animal in question. It is entirely appropriate that such prospective breeders no longer have residual questions of that nature surrounding the animals they intend to use in their projects. Either they already know, or they aren't ready. It is one of the many things that a person should be knowledgeable of prior to any breeding attempt.

So comments like "There goes my chances of breeding diablos this year." should be met with opposition. The problem isn't the perceived incivility* of those who are taking the time out of their lives to assist by pointing out the impediment; it's entirely the selfish, demanding, short-cut seeking defensive attitudes of the individual who has been told that they are not in a position to do the thing they want to do. Katie got uppity and snide because others dared to suggest that she shouldn't seek immediate gratification of her whim. The problem here was not Dennis or Richard.

Significantly, the value of imparted information is distinct from the method of conveyance. The efficacy of any given approach as a conversational tactic can be wildly variable depending on the nuanced specifics of the intended audience, but there are definitely people who need to be beaten over the head with an idea before they're willing to recognize the veracity of something that isn't what they wanted to hear. It is a source of frequent amazement to me how a stubborn combatant can become an eager supplicant simply by abusing them of the notion that their contributions to a debate are of equal value.

But then, what do I know about being; rude, uncivil, curt, aggressive, insulting or mean? I'm a goddamn teddy bear with no experience dealing with people who ask questions just to hear the answers they want confirmed.


*"you're not ready" is hardly rude. It's an unemotional statement of fact.

I disagree. I'm very thankful to be told what I didnt want to hear (that I have a mp, not a blizzard) because thats beneficial.
I did not need to be told I was not ready to breed. I already knew that. I plan on breeding in 2012, wether anyone likes it or not. I plan on doing strick research for the next 5 - 6 months. By then, I believe I will be ready.

What I dont like about particular answers if that people believe they have some 'right' to be able to tell people what they 'should' do. I didnt sign up for that. I'm the type of person who likes answers to the questions I ask.

Ive learned how to distingish a mp from a blizzard from some very helpful people. Thats all I wanted.

Thats all that should have been said.

Trust me, you get more flies with honey. I worked a vet clinic for years, and you cant get someone to not breed their dog by begging them, talking down to them, or making them feel guilty. That doesnt work with geckos either.

I feel like Ive been judged and marked an irrisponsible and naive gecko owner. That judgement is very wrong. I care very much about my geckos.

 

[katie_]

Too bad I cant someday breed diablos with THIS PARTICULAR gecko was just a statement like "oh bummer". This doesnt mean I'm going to cast this gecko aside. I may choose a different program I could add him too, or keep him as a single man.
I have no plans set in stone, as you all said yourselfs

IM A BEGINNER

 

[stager]

Too bad I cant someday breed diablos with THIS PARTICULAR gecko was just a statement like "oh bummer". This doesnt mean I'm going to cast this gecko aside. I may choose a different program I could add him too, or keep him as a single man.
I have no plans set in stone, as you all said yourselfs

IM A BEGINNER

You actually said there goes my chances for breeding diabalos this year. That's why he questioned you. It's hard to be the new kid but don't get upset. Welcome and keep researching I've learn alot here in a few months. I also sometimes felt people were a little hard but after rereading a whole thread I realized ther were only trying to help me. So please don't get discouraged.

 

[sunshinegeckos]

It is good that your asking questions. Ask all the questions you need to. Along with asking questions I found a good way to find the info I needed was by reading, looking up older posts on here and other forums and talking to breeders themselves because they know what they are talking about. I am sorry if I misunderstood. By your statement it sounded like you bought this gecko with the intention of breeding him. good luck and welcome to the forums

 

[katie_]

You actually said there goes my chances for breeding diabalos this year. That's why he questioned you. It's hard to be the new kid but don't get upset. Welcome and keep researching I've learn alot here in a few months. I also sometimes felt people were a little hard but after rereading a whole thread I realized ther were only trying to help me. So please don't get discouraged.

Theres 8 days left of this year. Ovbiously I meant "this year" as in 2012

 

[SamsonizeMe]

Just a question... why try to make DBs from scratch? It's going to cost you way less to buy just two DBs from a breeder, than to breed and care for (possibly hundreds of) babies before you hit the odds on a triple recessive combination.

All those other babies will need homes. Better to start with the work others have already done on the morph combo than to start from the ground up.

 

[TranceZ]

I agree with everyone has to start some where. We were all noobs once and if I was in your shoes, I wouldn't enjoy the unhelpful/arrogant comments that a few people posted as well. This person is looking for help and isn't this what the forum is about a database full of imformation orbiting around the same subject we all love. If ya want to start breeding, hey go for it imo. Its an experience! Obviously be smart about it though. A little reading, preperation, and the right tools will make you successful. Goodluck!

 

[stager]

Theres 8 days left of this year. Ovbiously I meant "this year" as in 2012

I didn't assume you ment 8 days I ment I don't think it would be possible to get a triple rec morph like Diablo blanco from a blizzard in one full year no matter what you breed to it. But welcome to the forums I wasn't tryin to pick on you, sorry if it seemed that way. I you haven't seen it already try www.leopardgeckomorphcalculator.co.uk hope that helps.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Awwwww, come on people! Lighten up. Can you imagine how many redundant questions I have answered in the past 16+ years? I don't talk down to anyone unless they are being combative and arrogant (or a troll). When I get frustrated with newbie questions I try to step away from the computer, or wait to answer an email until I can be helpful instead of condescending. I think ALL of us can use a refresher course in 'plays well with others'.

Can you think back to when you didn't understand what a recessive genetic trait even was? Do any of you remember when you couldn't tell the difference between a Patternless and a Blizzard? Well, I remember... and I am probably the only breeder in the world that still works with the pure form of these morphs. Frankly, I have seen a LOT of Blizzards that are so yellow that they could easily be mistaken for a Patty, and I will occasionally scratch my head!

Katie, I must admit that I also thought you might be someone who has been a chronic problem here on this forum, and repeatedly comes back under a different user name after being banned multiple times. I know now that you are not that person, and if I have been rude to you in any way, I apologize. Keep in mind that the majority of 'newbies' do not have your assertiveness and some members here don't know how to deal with that, much less answer your questions. People interacting with each other when there is an attitude in the air doesn't make for a successful flow of information.

 

[katie_]

Just a question... why try to make DBs from scratch? It's going to cost you way less to buy just two DBs from a breeder, than to breed and care for (possibly hundreds of) babies before you hit the odds on a triple recessive combination.

All those other babies will need homes. Better to start with the work others have already done on the morph combo than to start from the ground up.

For fun? To learn? Diablos were my goal...

 

[katie_]

Awwwww, come on people! Lighten up. Can you imagine how many redundant questions I have answered in the past 16+ years? I don't talk down to anyone unless they are being combative and arrogant (or a troll). When I get frustrated with newbie questions I try to step away from the computer, or wait to answer an email until I can be helpful instead of condescending. I think ALL of us can use a refresher course in 'plays well with others'.

Can you think back to when you didn't understand what a recessive genetic trait even was? Do any of you remember when you couldn't tell the difference between a Patternless and a Blizzard? Well, I remember... and I am probably the only breeder in the world that still works with the pure form of these morphs. Frankly, I have seen a LOT of Blizzards that are so yellow that they could easily be mistaken for a Patty, and I will occasionally scratch my head!

Katie, I must admit that I also thought you might be someone who has been a chronic problem here on this forum, and repeatedly comes back under a different user name after being banned multiple times. I know now that you are not that person, and if I have been rude to you in any way, I apologize. Keep in mind that the majority of 'newbies' do not have your assertiveness and some members here don't know how to deal with that, much less answer your questions. People interacting with each other when there is an attitude in the air doesn't make for a successful flow of information.

I will try to keep my attitude in check! I know I have one of those..

 

[M_surinamensis]

I disagree.

Of course you do.

I'm very thankful to be told what I didnt want to hear

Thats all I wanted.

Thats all that should have been said.

Does anyone else see an inherent incompatibility between those two quotes, taken from the same post, mere lines apart? Anyone? Bueller?

Here's the thing of it, Princess... You don't get to dictate what other people say or do not say. That is not something that is within the scope of your control. You can issue opinions on what should or should not be said; much like how others issued opinions about what you should or should not try to do with your ill fated proposed breeding projects, but you can't enforce those opinions any more than they can. If you think someone has violated the rules of conduct for the site, report their post. The mods may or may not agree with you, but it is their decision to make. I am not a mod myself, but offhand I am pretty sure that "telling Katie something she doesn't want to hear." isn't on the list of violations.

What I dont like about particular answers if that people believe they have some 'right' to be able to tell people what they 'should' do.

Rights and websites, websites and rights... you had to go there, didn't you? None of us have any rights to use this website except those granted to us by Kelli, its owner. They start and end where she decides to allow them. End of story there.

Had you used a different word to convey your intended concept though, then people certainly are in a position to tell you what you should do (not must, just should) and what is correct. Who has it, to what degree, is a subject for some debate but it comes from having more substantial and meaningful experience and knowledge than you have. Those who can better comprehend the consequences of what you're proposing, who have been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, who know more about leopard gecko teeth than you do cumulatively about all reptiles combined, who have a personal investment in the future of the captive gene pool and pet gecko market. They know better, so they tried to help you out. It wasn't what you wanted though, so you rejected it despite its veracity.

I didnt sign up for that.

I can't speak to your motivations for signing up. I can speak to mine; and while I didn't respond until late in this thread, I have run into many like you many times and I have come to realize that I didn't sign up to be treated like a Google search engine, existing only to spit out a list of answers for some puffed up, know-nothing, irritant of the week to browse through until they find the one they like.

You're asking questions because you don't know a damn thing, no harm in that by itself, it is- as has been mentioned seven or eight times- the default state. But who are you to decide which answers are worth paying attention to? If you knew that then you wouldn't need to be asking in the first place. If you think that the people you are directing the question towards are capable of answering it, maybe you should show a little respect for their judgment and learn from whatever they have to tell you; even if it wasn't what you expected it is probably worth knowing.

I'm the type of person who likes answers to the questions I ask.

I'm the type who likes providing answers that are meaningful, even if someone asks the wrong question.

I feel like Ive been judged

Yep.

and marked an irrisponsible

Depends on what you end up actually doing with that breeding "plan" of yours.

and naive gecko owner.

Absolutely.

That judgement is very wrong. I care very much about my geckos.

Caring about them is nifty. It doesn't really matter though, when looking at right and wrong, ethical and ill advised, doing things right versus doing them fast, planning versus whim and motivations beyond gratification.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I can't speak to your motivations for signing up. I can speak to mine; and while I didn't respond until late in this thread, I have run into many like you many times and I have come to realize that I didn't sign up to be treated like a Google search engine, existing only to spit out a list of answers for some puffed up, know-nothing, irritant of the week to browse through until they find the one they like.

Seamus has a very good point here. It's difficult at times for many who are well-seasoned, experienced breeders to extend knowledge and information when neophytes will often bypass the plethora of answers that are already here on the forum. It's also frustrating to be argued with when someone already has their own ideas of what they are going to do anyway.

 

[lillith]

Okay people, peace on earth, goodwill toward gecko newcomers?

Katie, kudos for researching it out first. It may take you longer than your expected 5-6 months, I lurked around here for a good 2 years or so before I bought an incubator. There's always more to learn, too. That's what makes these guys so much fun.

 

[katie_]

Of course you do.





Does anyone else see an inherent incompatibility between those two quotes, taken from the same post, mere lines apart? Anyone? Bueller?

Here's the thing of it, Princess... You don't get to dictate what other people say or do not say. That is not something that is within the scope of your control. You can issue opinions on what should or should not be said; much like how others issued opinions about what you should or should not try to do with your ill fated proposed breeding projects, but you can't enforce those opinions any more than they can. If you think someone has violated the rules of conduct for the site, report their post. The mods may or may not agree with you, but it is their decision to make. I am not a mod myself, but offhand I am pretty sure that "telling Katie something she doesn't want to hear." isn't on the list of violations.



Rights and websites, websites and rights... you had to go there, didn't you? None of us have any rights to use this website except those granted to us by Kelli, its owner. They start and end where she decides to allow them. End of story there.

Had you used a different word to convey your intended concept though, then people certainly are in a position to tell you what you should do (not must, just should) and what is correct. Who has it, to what degree, is a subject for some debate but it comes from having more substantial and meaningful experience and knowledge than you have. Those who can better comprehend the consequences of what you're proposing, who have been there, done that and bought the t-shirt, who know more about leopard gecko teeth than you do cumulatively about all reptiles combined, who have a personal investment in the future of the captive gene pool and pet gecko market. They know better, so they tried to help you out. It wasn't what you wanted though, so you rejected it despite its veracity.



I can't speak to your motivations for signing up. I can speak to mine; and while I didn't respond until late in this thread, I have run into many like you many times and I have come to realize that I didn't sign up to be treated like a Google search engine, existing only to spit out a list of answers for some puffed up, know-nothing, irritant of the week to browse through until they find the one they like.

You're asking questions because you don't know a damn thing, no harm in that by itself, it is- as has been mentioned seven or eight times- the default state. But who are you to decide which answers are worth paying attention to? If you knew that then you wouldn't need to be asking in the first place. If you think that the people you are directing the question towards are capable of answering it, maybe you should show a little respect for their judgment and learn from whatever they have to tell you; even if it wasn't what you expected it is probably worth knowing.



I'm the type who likes providing answers that are meaningful, even if someone asks the wrong question.



Yep.



Depends on what you end up actually doing with that breeding "plan" of yours.



Absolutely.



Caring about them is nifty. It doesn't really matter though, when looking at right and wrong, ethical and ill advised, doing things right versus doing them fast, planning versus whim and motivations beyond gratification.

I didnt even read any of this. Get over it.
Merry Xmas

 

[sunshinegeckos]

Katie if you want anyone to take you serious quit the attitude