Golden Gate Geckos Slurry

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Troll or not, the forum rules still apply.

I'm sure I was probably borderline of getting an infraction myself, soince I was pretty hard on this person. I always feel bad when I challenge someone that way, whether they deserve it or not.

What I truly wonder is what this person's motive is? Do they just want to create a nuisance or evoke attention?

I haven't got a clue, and unless this person decides to contact me personally so we can hash this out, we will probably never know.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, I got a very lengthy and detailed email response from Dr. Burgess, and now I am more confused than I was before. It's really w-a-a-a-y to wordy to repost, so I'll paraphrase what he said about the GGG slurry:

- He states that using Hill's AD alone is sufficient.
- He says that feeding a leopard gecko mealworms is like a steady diet of McDonald's French Fries, and should only be fed sparingly.
- He says that baby food squash has too many carbohydrates for carnivorous reptiles like leopard geckos.
- He recommends using aquatic turtle chow in the blender with the Hill's AD.
- He does not like the use of commercially formulated reptile supplements.
- He recommends a diet with a 2:1 Ca/P ratio for complete reptile nutrition.
- He does not recommend using Ensure because it is developed for humans.

I guess my only other questions would be, is Hill's AD alone sufficient for insectivores such as leopard and fat-tail geckos since they are not carnivores? Hill's AD is made from pasteurized Pork Liver, Poultry Liver, Chicken, Corn Flour, Pork Protein Isolate, and Fish Oil. It has a fat content of just over 30%, and about a 1:1 Ca/P ratio. Mealworms have a crude fat content of 32.8%, and a Ca/P ratio of 1:7% according to this detailed lab study (one of the few I've found that is a legitimate study): http://www.nagonline.net/Technical%20Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf

Turtle chow is made primarily from fish and meat by-products and aquatic vegetation (carbohydrates), and is usually not pasteurized. I would be concerned for a sick leopard gecko with a depressed immune system to eat unpasteurized meat and fish products for fear of bacterial infections. How does vegetation-type carbohydrates differ from using a small jar of baby food squash? Is it better to feed something that is developed for turtles as opposed to something that is developed for humans? Am I over-thinking this? Any non-combative, cerebral stimulating comments? :main_huh:

 

[Dimidiata]

You should ask him what he thinks about using the slurry for a insectivore -_-. Although its nice to know what to feed my carnivorous animals should they stop eating and the vet reccomends it.

 

[Wild West Reptile]

Any non-combative, cerebral stimulating comments? :main_huh:

I enjoy a nice glass of Zinfandel or Cabernet Sauvignon with fresh dungeness crab this time of year. Some people will only enjoy their seafood with white wine, but I'm all for drinking whatever it is I enjoy, and I enjoy red's. Comments??

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

As a matter of fact, I am enjoying a nice glass of Lodi Old-Vine Zinfandel at this very moment! It's been one of those kind of days...

 

[fl_orchidslave]

I stand on my statement that I would NOT take any of my reptiles to a vet who believes leopard geckos are carnivores.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Here's a few points to ponder from Dr. Burgess' email:

geckos-- they ARE carnivores; (insectivores= carnivores, not herbivores). They simply subsist on (mostly) invertebrate prey rather than vertebrate, but that still qualifies as a high protein/low plant-fiber diet. Some larger geckos will eat pinky mice, fish, etc, if offered. But even if they don't, 'insectivore' is just a sub-group of 'carnivore'.

as far as supplement powders, it's not just that nutrient content may need to vary with species; it was also that the dose of ANY powder should vary with body size (even between baby and adult geckos, for instance) ... and this isn't accounted for with those products, making them impossible to dose with high accuracy. Again, it's another risk factor when using powders; no one really knows what the exact dose should be; overdosage is very common, though may take months to years to produce fatality in many cases. I have most my reptile patients completely off of all vitamin-mineral supplements, and if the diet is good, they have no nutrient problems at all. Just like in the wild.

Your slurry can probably be used for short term w/o much severe risk of problems; however, the main nutritional content driving its success is likely the A/D, and some of the other ingredients are either not needed or might actually reduce the nutritional balance of the formula. So...could it be used? Yes. Would it provide caloric content, vitamins, protein, etc... yes. Could it nutritionally boost a sick reptile? Yes. Is it better than a simple A/D slurry or reptile food slurry? ... No.

So now we know where 'Sybil' has gleaned her information.

 

[fl_orchidslave]

LMAO!!!

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

as far as supplement powders, it's not just that nutrient content may need to vary with species; it was also that the dose of ANY powder should vary with body size (even between baby and adult geckos, for instance) ... and this isn't accounted for with those products, making them impossible to dose with high accuracy. Again, it's another risk factor when using powders; no one really knows what the exact dose should be; overdosage is very common, though may take months to years to produce fatality in many cases.

Actually, this is something I tend to agree with. There is no 'one-size-fits-all' supplement that meets the needs of every reptile. There is a huge difference in the supplemental requirements of a bearded dragon or iguana that eats vegetation and assimilates VitD from natural sunlight, and a nocturnal insectivore like a leo or fat-tail.

I have most my reptile patients completely off of all vitamin-mineral supplements, and if the diet is good, they have no nutrient problems at all. Just like in the wild.

I can understand the basic logic behind this. In the wild, leopard geckos eat indigenous insect prey that feed on the natural vegetation in the area. Those plants are grown in nutritive soil that is primarily clay and limestone... a natural source of calcium. The problem I see is that there is NO WAY we can even come close to duplication the natural environment and diet of captive leopard geckos, and therefore must try to compensate with the best substitutes.

 

[Dimidiata]

It sounds like hes not thinking thinks all the way through. Arnt we helping with the calcium dosing by allowing them to take what they want from a bowl? or do they not know what or how much of it they need?

 

[grboxa]

It sounds like hes not thinking thinks all the way through. Arnt we helping with the calcium dosing by allowing them to take what they want from a bowl? or do they not know what or how much of it they need?

His point is if you feed variety supplementing isn't as necessary. If you feed a high calcium diet are you going to be concerned about calcium intake? Although I was told that vitamin supplements contain certain vitamins that aren't found in our feeders which is needed, is this correct? I don't supplement calcium because I already give a high calcium diet, and only do a multivitamin dust once a month with a D3 dust. And i'm pretty sure he thought things through thoroughly considering his position.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I understand Dr. Burgess' point, and my point is similar. We don't know what the specific dietary and supplemental requirements ARE. There is nothing published that tells us exactly what percentage of protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals are necessary for a leopard gecko's diet. Different vets, like different breeders and keepers, have individual ideas, methods, and products we use and recommend. Since there is NO WAY we can duplicate the natural diet of geckos in the wild, we are left to trial and error.

So George, since you provide a diet for your gecko(s) that is high in calcium, how do you know if it's high enough, or not enough? Feeding a variety might be best, but we are not feeding anything that is a natural food source for leopard gecko in the wild.

I think what Dr. Burgess is saying is that there are no standards set for the Calcium requirements for specific reptiles. I agree. BUT! Since this is the case, how do we determine the standards for other nutrients like protein, fat, carbohydrates, and trace minerals? On one hand, he's saying that there is too much fat in mealworms and we can overdose our geckos on Calcium, yet on the flip side saying that we don't really know what the ideal fat or calcium percentage is.

 

[grboxa]

I understand Dr. Burgess' point, and my point is similar. We don't know what the specific dietary and supplemental requirements ARE. There is nothing published that tells us exactly what percentage of protein, fat, vitamins, and minerals are necessary for a leopard gecko's diet. Different vets, like different breeders and keepers, have individual ideas, methods, and products we use and recommend. Since there is NO WAY we can duplicate the natural diet of geckos in the wild, we are left to trial and error.

So George, since you provide a diet for your gecko(s) that is high in calcium, how do you know if it's high enough, or not enough? Feeding a variety might be best, but we are not feeding anything that is a natural food source for leopard gecko in the wild.

I think what Dr. Burgess is saying is that there are no standards set for the Calcium requirements for specific reptiles. I agree. BUT! Since this is the case, how do we determine the standards for other nutrients like protein, fat, carbohydrates, and trace minerals? On one hand, he's saying that there is too much fat in mealworms and we can overdose our geckos on Calcium, yet on the flip side saying that we don't really know what the ideal fat or calcium percentage is.

agree, and that's why I'm just sharing what I do with my animals, in no way am I saying my method is what is best, but its been working without problems for me. Since I feed in my opinion a high calcium diet, I don't see the need to have extra calcium in there to digest unnecessarily..geckos lick everything....it is able to over supplement with calcium correct?..that is just my point. I do agree though, your right, we have no idea what is needed...do you know the exact amount that is given to your animals?.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, I do try to feed a varied diet consisting of mealworms, crickets, supers, and dubia roaches, and I gutload with human-grade 10-grain cereal mixed with 10% Vionate. I really don't know how much calcium I am giving my geckos since it depends on how much they actually ingest. I do put a dash of Calcium w/out D3 in their mealworm bowls, and when I feed crickets or dubia, I dust them with calcium w/D3 and vitamins. So far I haven't seen any kind of over supplementation (that I know of) in over 16 years. I've lost geckos for no apparent cause, and I also have some really old ones, too. It would be great if we could honestly know, but it's hard when just about every list of the nutritive values of feeder insects is different.

You'd think that since reptiles are a main-stream pet now, that there would be more studies and information on reptile nutrition. Sometimes I think we are all correct, and at the same time none of us are doing it right.

 

[grboxa]

Exactly:main_thumbsup:..no one really knows and like you said its trial/error and observation. My male licks almost everything, and I feel like a diet of silk/phoenix/and crickets is enough to not leave a full dish of calcium with concerns of him just digesting it unnecessarily. Leo's don't understand what the actual calcium powder is and what purpose it serves for them....a lot of geckos will just lick because its there and or because there hungry...like my male...am I wrong?. You can over supplement on calcium as well cant you?

 

[Dimidiata]

Its a difficult situation, because if you can over suppliment simply by letting them lick what they want then what do we do? If we dont provide them with the calcium we may very well under suppliment them. Im with GGG, youd think that there would be more studies. I can understand why we cant get leo studies currently due to the war and all that chaos but itd be nice.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

You can over supplement on calcium as well cant you?

Yes, it's called Hypercalcaemia. It's when blood calcium levels are too high, and it can be diagnosed with a blood test. It's more common in animals that have thyroid disorders.

 

[grboxa]

Its a difficult situation, because if you can over suppliment simply by letting them lick what they want then what do we do? If we dont provide them with the calcium we may very well under suppliment them. Im with GGG, youd think that there would be more studies. I can understand why we cant get leo studies currently due to the war and all that chaos but itd be nice.

I understand its a difficult situation, that's why I just want to make sure i'm not coming off saying putting a dish in is wrong because every animal is fed different levels of calcium. I'm just stating what I do with my animal with no problems so far. My female has a very small amount of calcium in her tank though, but she hasn't touched it at all literally since we got it so I'm not worried about leaving it in and over supplementing, and I'm not surprised, I feel like she gets enough calcium anyways they both are fed the same diet...my male is just amused of everything and always up to something, he is in a much bigger tank though.

 

[KelliH]

Exactly:main_thumbsup:..no one really knows and like you said its trial/error and observation. My male licks almost everything, and I feel like a diet of silk/phoenix/and crickets is enough to not leave a full dish of calcium with concerns of him just digesting it unnecessarily. Leo's don't understand what the actual calcium powder is and what purpose it serves for them....a lot of geckos will just lick because its there and or because there hungry...like my male...am I wrong?. You can over supplement on calcium as well cant you?

I don't worry about too much calcium. It's too much Vit A and Vit D3 that concern me. George, how long have you been keeping leopard geckos?

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I don't worry about too much calcium. It's too much Vit A and Vit D3 that concern me. George, how long have you been keeping leopard geckos?

I don't worry too much about calcium either... or VitD3 so much. It's the VitA I am most concerned about.