Making Emerines

[jandsfannon]

That's exactly my point.
The greenish hue is not something that is unique to Tremper lines, it's something that's proven to be more of a random occurrence more than anything else.
I have hatched out some Greenie-Beenies that came from a Tornado X Normal pairing. I also hatched out from the same pairing some brilliant SHTCT's, and even one SHTCTB that has the dark orange colouring of a Tornado,..and I've hatched out some brighter coloured "normals".
What should they be called?
Green Knight Mutts?lol!
No. Nor do they command any higher of a price tag. Sometimes we get ourselves caught up in the allure of "what if I hatched out a new line??...$$$$$$$$$!!!!", you see it all the time in the ball python world.
Like I stated previously, until a specific line has been proven to consistently produce uniquely green coloured geckos, there is no "line" worthy of protecting.
Dave

My Emerine consistantly produced green babies this year. Why do YOU need the proof? Why is it everyone else realizes that you cannot take a name of some elses line without starting with that line? Raptors are not Emerines so that doesnt count.

 

[Allee Toler]

Well, I'm breeding her (in my avi) to an emerine (to see how bright of green she can throw with one, she's waayy green). Lol! But the following year, she's being bred to something else. Not sure what.

Dave, you share the same view as I do. Things need to be bred consistently to show it is in fact genetic. I'm not going to take Lydia, pop out a green baby and claim it's a new line without seeing that it can be passed with multiple generations. Im going to call them Boogies. Lolololol.

 

[Allee Toler]

Sabrina, RAPTOR's are a Tremper line. So if you use a RAPTOR to make any form of green, you're making a "tremper line emerine".

 

[jandsfannon]

Sabrina, RAPTOR's are a Tremper line. So if you use a RAPTOR to make any form of green, you're making a "tremper line emerine".

How so? So you are saying any one who has raptors can make Emerines? If thats the case I think there would be thousands of them? I have hatched green tangs before from tremper crossing but the green never stays usually after 30 grams. While it is possible to make a green gecko I believe there is still something else in the Emerine line that makes it pass on.
Dave why do you post a few pics of your emerines?

 

[Allee Toler]

I'm not saying they "make" emerines. That's simply how (from my knowledge) they popped up, then were line bred.

If you make them, and spend years to 'perfect' "your" line, they're still technically from TREMPER.

RAPTOR- T stands for TREMPER. So you cannot take claim to creating the line.

 

[GreenKnight Exotics]

You are cashing in on this morph and LYING to your customers.

I'm pretty certain it's the other way around Sabrina. What morph? As far as lying to customers,..lol! I tell them what I put into creating the geckos I sell. If they say to me "why is your gecko $50 and theirs is $350?", I simply explain that it's not a proven mutation, it's a random occurrence that comes with certain geckos, and that in the U.S. Ron Tremper released his "line", and with his name comes a higher price tag, plain and simple.

You cannot prove that green passes down which is the WHOLE reason emerines have a morph name.

Wait,...you can't prove that it's a genetic trait that's passed down,..but it's a mutation? So,..what is the benefit of buying "Emerines" for the purpose of breeding them if there's no proof that it's anything more than a random occurrence? Do you see where I'm coming from? If I'm buying something for it's genetics with the hopes of crossing those genetics into other lines, shouldn't I have a little faith that my hard-earned money is being well spent, instead of just using my cash to buy a name?

I brought Emerines into canada because they were not here before. I dont care if you do not agree with the price tag.....you are stealing the name of some elses hard work to cash in on it quickly otherwise you wouldnt care to name it

You're referring to my ad on R/C, the reason that I cited "Emerines" in my availability was in all honesty as a joke,..because it's NOT a morph! I knew I'd be getting a call from you and John about it, and I was right. I told John that I had hatched out greenish geckos, like I had told you before, and that I didn't buy into the whole "morph" scheme, and that I'd be selling them for $50 because that was all that I felt they were worth. If it bothers you that much I'll change the ad, it's no skin off of my back, and I value both of you as friends,..remember I told John that I started this thread here, and that I didn't do it to be a jerk.
It seems that the only people defending the "Emerines" are the ones who have "invested" into them. I'm sorry that you've taken such offense to my feelings on the subject, but I've told you how I've felt about these "Emerines" since you first brought them in, and until it's something that has been proven to be genetic, it's not something in my opinion that warrants a price tag in the three digit range.

Dave

 

[thestack510]

No one ever said that green hues are unique solely to the Emerine line, but I will tell you that they are a common occurrence within that line for sure. Emerines are a line of Tangerines, not their own separate morph.

 

[thestack510]

If you feel that something is just a cash grab then you are free to shop elsewhere, but why discredit someone's work in the process? For the record, I don't agree with pricing on quite a few lines and I feel that Emerine prices should reflect those of other high caliber Tangerine lines such as Tangerine Tornadoes, Blood Hypos, HISS Electrics, and so on, which can and often do come with some price tag.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

if anything the emerine seems like one of the classic morphs, like a patternless designer morph before there was APTORs and RAPTORs there were probably PORs(patternless orange) lol this is where I think emerines cane from. Sort of a rebranding if you will. The green everyone is talking about them producing sounds more like the emerald/emerald rainbow variation rather than a clean striped emerine. Its just really stretching it to say because its a rapTor(tremper) cross you can consider it the same as a emerine---even if that were the case-no offense- tremper has some of the best specimens of raptors and tangs to choose from and that is why they cost so much and people will pay. I'm also curious how many people in this thread even own an emerines because they really are beautiful even if you consider it nothing new.

 

[thestack510]

I own a group of Emerines. Not all Emerines are patternless. I think that is the case with the Extreme Emerines though, as far as I can tell.

 

[jandsfannon]

I'm pretty certain it's the other way around Sabrina. What morph? As far as lying to customers,..lol! I tell them what I put into creating the geckos I sell. If they say to me "why is your gecko $50 and theirs is $350?", I simply explain that it's not a proven mutation, it's a random occurrence that comes with certain geckos, and that in the U.S. Ron Tremper released his "line", and with his name comes a higher price tag, plain and simple.


Wait,...you can't prove that it's a genetic trait that's passed down,..but it's a mutation? So,..what is the benefit of buying "Emerines" for the purpose of breeding them if there's no proof that it's anything more than a random occurrence? Do you see where I'm coming from? If I'm buying something for it's genetics with the hopes of crossing those genetics into other lines, shouldn't I have a little faith that my hard-earned money is being well spent, instead of just using my cash to buy a name?




You're referring to my ad on R/C, the reason that I cited "Emerines" in my availability was in all honesty as a joke,..because it's NOT a morph! I knew I'd be getting a call from you and John about it, and I was right. I told John that I had hatched out greenish geckos, like I had told you before, and that I didn't buy into the whole "morph" scheme, and that I'd be selling them for $50 because that was all that I felt they were worth. If it bothers you that much I'll change the ad, it's no skin off of my back, and I value both of you as friends,..remember I told John that I started this thread here, and that I didn't do it to be a jerk.
It seems that the only people defending the "Emerines" are the ones who have "invested" into them. I'm sorry that you've taken such offense to my feelings on the subject, but I've told you how I've felt about these "Emerines" since you first brought them in, and until it's something that has been proven to be genetic, it's not something in my opinion that warrants a price tag in the three digit range.

Dave

How am I lying about this particular morph? If it was only random how in the world did I make emerines with only one emerine? All of my females babies have shown varying amount of green. From full body jungles to stripes to the smallest amount is on a patternless stripe. Do I believe one that has minimal amount of green deserves the same high price tag and one with a large amount of green, no.
I am not saying that you are lying about ALL your geckos, I am saying if you sell this green gecko as a emerine that is lying plain and simple.
I have hatched out a green gecko from a Tremper Sunglow to a normal. It looked great for a few months and then the green went away. So what happens when you sell that gecko as an emerine to someone who expects that green to stay and to pass on? What if it doesnt? That is what I am saying is the fallacy.
No one may know every in and out about this morph but from what Ive seen there is something there that is DIFFERENT about the way the green comes in. It does stay and does pass on!!
What I dont understand is why you seem to believe this is not a morph? They are not recessive (from what Ive seen), that fine but is that the only thing that makes something a morph?
Tangerine is not recessive but its still a morph. Its line bred and there are many different lines of tang. I have a tang that shows a large amount of red, does that automatically entitle me to call it a blood tang? NO it does not that is a specific line of tang.
Why is tang different from Green? There are several people working on green lines so should they all call them emerines? NO unless it came from Rons line its a seperate line that may or may not behave differently when breeding.
You need to have a little faith in a breeder when you are spending your money on a morph that they are telling the truth when they sell you something. For example, you have done your research and are looking to by a morph, generally they all have names so no matter what you, are looking for that particular morph name. You find a breeder that is selling that morph and purchase it. That is you trusting that breeder to have accurately and truthfully represented that morph.
When I purchased my Emerine I was told the bloodlines and what to possibly expect when I bred it, I got those results and better. If I bought a Green Tangerine (which is what you have at this point), I would not expect the same results from that animal as from an emerine. Why because at that point it is unproven whether or not that animal will pass that color on. I can and do expect that when I breed my emerine I will get green babies.

You keep referring to purchasing a name, then why do you purchase and sell Tornados? Because it is a beautiful line of tang. Just like Electric Tang is another beautiful line of tang. If I crossed those 2 line together would I still have pure electrics or Tornados....no they would be a mix of the 2.

As for your ad, it really didnt bother me until you told me your cross. For all I know you could have picked up an Emerine. When you told me the cross and still called them emerines that is where I have a problem. They are not no matter how you look at it. If it was a joke I didnt find it very funny. I know that if you had spent the time and effort into bringing a new line into canada, that perhaps I dont like or agree with, I would not have done that. I think you would be a little upset if someone (whether it be a joke or not) was misrepresenting something you were producing.
Honestly if you didnt by into the whole morph scheme you wouldnt be selling Tornados you would be selling Tangs, etc.
It may be that you picked a controversial morph to start a thread on so yes the people who spent money and time on them are defending them. Perhaps if you try to make firewaters without starting with a Hot Geckos tang there would be a little more of an uproar.

 

[robin]

How am I lying about this particular morph? If it was only random how in the world did I make emerines with only one emerine? All of my females babies have shown varying amount of green. From full body jungles to stripes to the smallest amount is on a patternless stripe. Do I believe one that has minimal amount of green deserves the same high price tag and one with a large amount of green, no.
I am not saying that you are lying about ALL your geckos, I am saying if you sell this green gecko as a emerine that is lying plain and simple.
I have hatched out a green gecko from a Tremper Sunglow to a normal. It looked great for a few months and then the green went away. So what happens when you sell that gecko as an emerine to someone who expects that green to stay and to pass on? What if it doesnt? That is what I am saying is the fallacy.
No one may know every in and out about this morph but from what Ive seen there is something there that is DIFFERENT about the way the green comes in. It does stay and does pass on!!
What I dont understand is why you seem to believe this is not a morph? They are not recessive (from what Ive seen), that fine but is that the only thing that makes something a morph?
Tangerine is not recessive but its still a morph. Its line bred and there are many different lines of tang. I have a tang that shows a large amount of red, does that automatically entitle me to call it a blood tang? NO it does not that is a specific line of tang.
Why is tang different from Green? There are several people working on green lines so should they all call them emerines? NO unless it came from Rons line its a seperate line that may or may not behave differently when breeding.
You need to have a little faith in a breeder when you are spending your money on a morph that they are telling the truth when they sell you something. For example, you have done your research and are looking to by a morph, generally they all have names so no matter what you, are looking for that particular morph name. You find a breeder that is selling that morph and purchase it. That is you trusting that breeder to have accurately and truthfully represented that morph.
When I purchased my Emerine I was told the bloodlines and what to possibly expect when I bred it, I got those results and better. If I bought a Green Tangerine (which is what you have at this point), I would not expect the same results from that animal as from an emerine. Why because at that point it is unproven whether or not that animal will pass that color on. I can and do expect that when I breed my emerine I will get green babies.

You keep referring to purchasing a name, then why do you purchase and sell Tornados? Because it is a beautiful line of tang. Just like Electric Tang is another beautiful line of tang. If I crossed those 2 line together would I still have pure electrics or Tornados....no they would be a mix of the 2.

As for your ad, it really didnt bother me until you told me your cross. For all I know you could have picked up an Emerine. When you told me the cross and still called them emerines that is where I have a problem. They are not no matter how you look at it. If it was a joke I didnt find it very funny. I know that if you had spent the time and effort into bringing a new line into canada, that perhaps I dont like or agree with, I would not have done that. I think you would be a little upset if someone (whether it be a joke or not) was misrepresenting something you were producing.
Honestly if you didnt by into the whole morph scheme you wouldnt be selling Tornados you would be selling Tangs, etc.
It may be that you picked a controversial morph to start a thread on so yes the people who spent money and time on them are defending them. Perhaps if you try to make firewaters without starting with a Hot Geckos tang there would be a little more of an uproar.

i think the reason why this particular "line" causes so much controversy is because tangerine geckos with green on them have been produced for YEARS and yes with green that passes on, that's part of tangs. take the hypo out (or lessen it) and you have tang and you get more blacks and lavenders and tang on top of that is green. "green" tangs having been happening for years. if you look back at the photos i posted those animals were from FOUR years ago and they came from two different tang lines (and one is a cross) and those lines consistently produced "green" tangs.

 

[robin]

So according to you, Robin. HISS electrics are the exact same as ordinary tangs. Correct? They're just two different breeders with two different bloodlines. Lol. But they're the same. At least that's what YOU are saying.

well yes, the electrics and the emerines are both tangs. that is no secret LOL

 

[jandsfannon]

i think the reason why this particular "line" causes so much controversy is because tangerine geckos with green on them have been produced for YEARS and yes with green that passes on, that's part of tangs. take the hypo out (or lessen it) and you have tang and you get more blacks and lavenders and tang on top of that is green. "green" tangs having been happening for years. if you look back at the photos i posted those animals were from FOUR years ago and they came from two different tang lines (and one is a cross) and those lines consistently produced "green" tangs.

I understand that some tang lines do produce green and the fact that you have one that consistantly produces green is great. Would you say they are Emerines? Or perhaps do you have your own line of "Green" geckos? I would say that since you worked to prove that it consistantly passes down, like tremper did you probably have your own line. But Emerines? I would say no. What I am arguing is that a gecko that hatched green and is not from the emerine line is being called an emerine. As I said earlier if it was proven to consistantly pass the green it could be considered another line of green, but still not Emerine. Just like your R2 bolds, there could be others that look like it but they should not be called R2 bold unless they come from your line.
I guess to me its a respect thing.....Im respecting people that founded their own line enough to not call a gecko that hatched out similar and not of their line the same thing. I would never call a tang an electric unless it came from Kelly, or a bold stripe an R2 unless it came from your line, same goes for the emerine or any other line out there. Its partly respect and also not wanting to miss represent what I am selling.

 

[KelliH]

Wow I'm just getting caught up on this exciting thread.

It appears as though infractions and warnings have been issued (I love the mods!:main_thumbsup

If any more personal insults and/or off topic posts are made, I'll close this thread and start giving people "time outs".

Debating the topic is fine, heated discussion is ok too, but personal attacks and trolling aren't. Don't make me break my foot off in your ......:main_yes:

 

[Allee Toler]

Thank you for deleting that, Kelli. Ignore my last email. ;]


I honestly think that saying ALL lines of tangs are the same is a bit disrespectful. They are indeed the same morph, but they are not the same line.

 

[HugeGenes&LoLa]

What it comes down to is naming green geckos. Said it before, but no one listened.

Got one for orange. Got one for purple. Got one for black (sort of).

What do we have for green? Emerine doesn't work because it's basically a patent for a specific line. Try again.

 

[Allee Toler]

I saw your previous post, and it's really a great idea. But it would need to involve the whole community. GF isn't the whole community.

 

[KelliH]

Thank you for deleting that, Kelli. Ignore my last email. ;]


I honestly think that saying ALL lines of tangs are the same is a bit disrespectful. They are indeed the same morph, but they are not the same line.

Well my thoughts are: I agree that all the different Tangs are not the same bloodline, but when it comes down to it they are all the same morph (Tang). I think when you have a Tang line (or any morph line, for instance an albino line) that looks quite different from any of the other lines, and that consistently reproduces itself then it's ok to come up with a name to show it's distinctiveness.

I will say that if another breeder started marketing their Tangs as Electrics when they are not geckos of my bloodlines then I would be a bit upset. On the flip side, it is also upsetting when you are the first to produce a morph (Bell Hybinos in my case), sell some Bell Hybinos to another breeder, then the next year they are selling offspring an calling them Bell Sunglows :main_rolleyes:

In my opinion (just because it's my opinion doesn't mean it's fact mkay) Emerines are not exclusively Tremper line. I think other lines could maybe be called "Insert Breeder Name" Emerines or Emeralds. I guess why I feel that way is because i don't see the point in making up more new names for geckos that are basically the same morph. It's confusing enough already!

 

[robin]

I understand that some tang lines do produce green and the fact that you have one that consistantly produces green is great. Would you say they are Emerines? Or perhaps do you have your own line of "Green" geckos? I would say that since you worked to prove that it consistantly passes down, like tremper did you probably have your own line. But Emerines? I would say no. What I am arguing is that a gecko that hatched green and is not from the emerine line is being called an emerine. As I said earlier if it was proven to consistantly pass the green it could be considered another line of green, but still not Emerine. Just like your R2 bolds, there could be others that look like it but they should not be called R2 bold unless they come from your line.
I guess to me its a respect thing.....Im respecting people that founded their own line enough to not call a gecko that hatched out similar and not of their line the same thing. I would never call a tang an electric unless it came from Kelly, or a bold stripe an R2 unless it came from your line, same goes for the emerine or any other line out there. Its partly respect and also not wanting to miss represent what I am selling.

i dunno, i always called the tangs i had what they were. so if i had a tang from hiss (these were pre "electric") and one from gourmet rodent. i would call them hiss x gourmet cross. nieves it is davids line (just so happens to be his last name) and i did have nieves and nieves crosses. so yeah i guess but like i said i think the controversy on this one stems from the fact that green tangs have been being produced for years.

let me ask you a question? if i take nieves lines, gourmet rodents lines, hiss lines, urban gecko lines and trempers lines and breed them together. what are they? i mean from those can i make my own lines?