New Enigma Thread

[PSGeckos]

We've only hatched one Enigma that circles. All of the Enigmas we've hatched have been Red-Eyed Enigmas so that's all I have to compare her to. The circling has lessened as she's aged and it appears to be light related. Here's some video I just took:

Very low light: no circling


Medium light: squints eyes and shows sensitivity to light


Bright light: closes eyes, very sensitive to light


The others are light sensitive but do not close there eyes as tightly or react as dramatically as this one.

Hi Mel & Keith

Can i ask the gecko in the video is it a RE Enigma?

There is a huge debate on a UK forum at the mo about these issues with the Enigmas

If you have a few spare hours to read the posts, feel free

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/107161-neuro-problems-enigma-s-still.html

By the way Diablo is the user KNZ-Geckos on here

 

[Mel&Keith]

Yes, it is a Red Eyed Enigma. She's pretty much grown out of the circling but will still occasionally do it if the sun is shining directly in her eyes.

 

[PSGeckos]

Yes, it is a Red Eyed Enigma. She's pretty much grown out of the circling but will still occasionally do it if the sun is shining directly in her eyes.

Thanks for the quick reply

So would you say in your opinion it is light sensitivity or Neuro problems?

 

[Mel&Keith]

That thread over there is almost painful to read. I'm so pleased that we rarely have that kind of bullying here on this forum. I would also like to mention that it is completely unfair (for Diablo) to say that one breeder in particular holds back new morphs for generations to "prove" that they have no genetic problems unless he has personal proof of that. That breeder sent us a completely blind gecko and a gecko that he had bred previous to shipping and then tried to hide the fact. That seems unethical to me. Pig tails have been a known genetic problem from inbreeding in another "big" breeder's lines. So to say that Enigma breeders are trying to hide problems is unfair. So, off of that tangent...

I can only speak for OUR Enigmas:
The one in the video only circles in bright light and has no issues in the dark so I would have to believe that the alleged neurological issues are triggered by sensitivity to light.

None of the other 6 Enigmas we own have shown any signs of neurological problems.

 

[PSGeckos]

That thread over there is almost painful to read. I'm so pleased that we rarely have that kind of bullying here on this forum. I would also like to mention that it is completely unfair (for Diablo) to say that one breeder in particular holds back new morphs for generations to "prove" that they have no genetic problems unless he has personal proof of that. That breeder sent us a completely blind gecko and a gecko that he had bred previous to shipping and then tried to hide the fact. That seems unethical to me. Pig tails have been a known genetic problem from inbreeding in another "big" breeder's lines. So to say that Enigma breeders are trying to hide problems is unfair. So, off of that tangent...

I can only speak for OUR Enigmas:
The one in the video only circles in bright light and has no issues in the dark so I would have to believe that the alleged neurological issues are triggered by sensitivity to light.

None of the other 6 Enigmas we own have shown any signs of neurological problems.

Thanks for you support, it angers me and is making me very sad that there are a lot of people who are being blinkered by peoples opinions and not keeping an open mind and looking for a solution or at least finding out what causes it. Such a biggoted thread :main_thumbsdown: on RFUK

I deeply care about my geckos, and love them all too bits, each and eveyone of them, i would put their wellbeing first and foremost everytime.

 

[Jeremy Letkey]

The only way we are going to get the answers to all the questions is through breeding and observation. Sharing the results with everyone.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I deeply care about my geckos, and love them all too bits, each and eveyone of them, i would put their wellbeing first and foremost everytime.

Luckily, I think this is how most of us feel. All new morphs have to be inbred to be reproduced. Now that they have been reproduced we can all start responsibly outcrossing and weeding out the "problems". I think these issues will all work themselves over time.

 

[leo mel]

thank you mel and keith for your'e latest input, i like ps geckos are uk breeders who have recently aquired this wonderful morph, like the other 3 uk breeders who posted on the reptile forum all of our enigmas show no signs a few red eyes show light sensitivty but i have deemed that has nothing unusual and have found albinos and bell albinos both with a degree of this.
It seems that some feel it necessary and have even quoted that it is their mission to tell the world of this morphs neurological problems and have based this info on one gecko which is stated as showing all the signs to the extreme and reading info off the internet,this is infact coming from someone who does not even own this morph and therfore does not have any hands on experience of this.
What has angered us most is the fact it was implied that breeders dilberatly hid these facts for fear of it attacking their pockets and also that there has been a cover up by the creators of this morph this is stated later in the thread.
both statements have been defended by the uk breeders and we ask for your'e advice and help in this matter in helping us with more info.
As the enigma morph has been with you all alot longer and you have all worked on it alot more than we have we feel you all must have more info to contribute, would it be possible if any of you could contribute here to it to your'e thoughts and opinions on this thread (rfuk thread in the uk).
After reading the thread on here before the new info we added to it, all uk breeders had read that although their were intially reported problems in a few enigmas in the early years of the morph that it was now decided by you all that you felt that this was too nothing serious and you all were not duely overconcerned and after looking at so many of your'e pictures of the new enigma offspring it seems that all of you are happy with this morph still.
we would appriciate any input you may have and we hope that both usa and uk breeders can share this knowledge and stop this new witch hunt in the uk of the enigma morph.:main_thumbsup:

 

[knz-geckos]

I am Diablo who's been commenting on that thread. Im sorry but it has come to light that there are more and more enigma's arising with this problem which seems to be neurological if its the case that breeders aren't disclosing it or what no one knows. Whilst I was at hamm someone tried to sell me a enigma with the problems that I have seen already. This is something which shouldn't be dismissed and should be researched, I personally do not think outcrossing will solve this problem its deeper than that. I know I may have annoyed a few breeders if not all breeders who deal with the enigma morph but it should be known to the public that these possible problems are there. If it is confirmed that the enigma gene does carry some disorder then what continue to breed geckos with neurological problems? Or cease breeding them. Only breeders can decide on what they would wish to do I for one don't want to see more leopard geckos created which end up suffering because of inbreeding and a defect in a genetic mutation.

Also I have never sold to anyone in the US.

 

[knz-geckos]

thank you mel and keith for your'e latest input, i like ps geckos are uk breeders who have recently aquired this wonderful morph, like the other 3 uk breeders who posted on the reptile forum all of our enigmas show no signs a few red eyes show light sensitivty but i have deemed that has nothing unusual and have found albinos and bell albinos both with a degree of this.
It seems that some feel it necessary and have even quoted that it is their mission to tell the world of this morphs neurological problems and have based this info on one gecko which is stated as showing all the signs to the extreme and reading info off the internet,this is infact coming from someone who does not even own this morph and therfore does not have any hands on experience of this.
What has angered us most is the fact it was implied that breeders dilberatly hid these facts for fear of it attacking their pockets and also that there has been a cover up by the creators of this morph this is stated later in the thread.
both statements have been defended by the uk breeders and we ask for your'e advice and help in this matter in helping us with more info.
As the enigma morph has been with you all alot longer and you have all worked on it alot more than we have we feel you all must have more info to contribute, would it be possible if any of you could contribute here to it to your'e thoughts and opinions on this thread (rfuk thread in the uk).
After reading the thread on here before the new info we added to it, all uk breeders had read that although their were intially reported problems in a few enigmas in the early years of the morph that it was now decided by you all that you felt that this was too nothing serious and you all were not duely overconcerned and after looking at so many of your'e pictures of the new enigma offspring it seems that all of you are happy with this morph still.
we would appriciate any input you may have and we hope that both usa and uk breeders can share this knowledge and stop this new witch hunt in the uk of the enigma morph.:main_thumbsup:

Melanie there is and never will be a witch hunt on the enigma morph and like i have said to you countless times you do not know what we keep also you do not know what we own. Sudden change of heart for you considering you came across rather defensive and aggressive in the other discussion on the other forum.

Also could someone please tell me how as is mentioned on the rfuk thead that if people can decide that there is nothing wrong with the enigma with out any scientific proof (from what i have seen there has been no testing of this kind) then why is it not ok to debate that it is possible the "light sensitivity" as everyone is labling it, may actually be caused be a neurological problem.

please dont forget that one of the breeders on the uk forum has said they have seen the circling in their own collection and there is aslo a very sick leopard gecko which came from a uk breeder.

 

[ataber]

the circling comes from stress and i guess light sensitivity could be a reason too...nobody has hidden the fact...if you think its neuro, outcross and be happy with it

 

[knz-geckos]

It hasn't been proven to be stress related it also hasn't been proven to be neurological yet. I'm afraid your theory doesn't make sense so many Enigmas just happen to be stressed which causes the circling motion I think not.

 

[ataber]

yet ive heard of enigmas that do not circle but after the stress of shipping then do.....that doesnt sound very neurological...unless the stress causes the neuro reaction...only time will tell...sure there seems to be an "issue" but ur sayin its hidden...personally if somebody is going to pay that much for an animal they most likely already know about this stuff.

 

[knz-geckos]

People have purchased enigma's here in the UK then later found out about this "issue" Yet i've heard of enigma's hatched out here in the UK to have this problem with circling and non feeding. So is that down to stress related I still think theres more to it than that.

 

[paulnj]

I took my male to a psychiatrist with me and he suggested it has OCD. The ritalin is working fine thus far, but it's not covered by pet insurance.

:main_laugh: :main_laugh: :main_laugh:

 

[ataber]

maybe he's got an std paul, he has been very promiscuous.

 

[paulnj]

Sorry, but a little laugh seemed in order.

 

[leo mel]

People have purchased enigma's here in the UK then later found out about this "issue" Yet i've heard of enigma's hatched out here in the UK to have this problem with circling and non feeding. So is that down to stress related I still think theres more to it than that.

where are these other people you speak of that you say have this problem with circling and non feeding, if this is the case why have not more of these unhappy enigma owners you speak of not contributed to the uk thread.
4 breeders have spoken up for the morph and stated that out of 8 enigmas only one showed slight signs of circling there has been no other reports of other uk enigma owners unhappy with their buy.
I notice you stated there are no neurological proof yet!! why do you add the yet on the end of it it seems you are only focused on the negative and it appears in your'e eyes it has to be that and that only, all other explainations are put aside by you as rubbish!

 

[Gregg M]

where are these other people you speak of that you say have this problem with circling and non feeding, if this is the case why have not more of these unhappy enigma owners you speak of not contributed to the uk thread.
4 breeders have spoken up for the morph and stated that out of 8 enigmas only one showed slight signs of circling there has been no other reports of other uk enigma owners unhappy with their buy.
I notice you stated there are no neurological proof yet!! why do you add the yet on the end of it it seems you are only focused on the negative and it appears in your'e eyes it has to be that and that only, all other explainations are put aside by you as rubbish!

:main_rolleyes:

 

[eyelids]

Please don't bring your quarrel over here... :shame: :main_no: