Please help- im begging! accidental pregnancy!

[Cayla & Adam]

This is a tangent from a previous thred I wrote yesterday
http://geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=57735

We never planned on breeding our leos. We had previously only purchased 1year + females to have as pets. Last year we felt so bad for this little gecko we saw at pet***** and it was beautiful we decided to purchase. 3 months later we went to a reptile expo and we decided to get another little one with the breeder said was female. Since they were young we housed them together from aug-nov. We then discovered the 1st one was definately a male and we separated them. 3 months later and we had to put our male to sleep.The girl stopped eating and we brought her to a vet and the vet said she was pregnant.
We have never bred, mated, incubated, or done anything before. We would love to be able to have her lay and be able to raise any possible babies we can.

Since we found out she was pregnant yesterday we have been researching like crazy. I feel everything contradicts each other and im starting to freak out. I really need any help i can get. Here are some on my questions.

1. For the lay box
-which side of the tank should we put it on.. or the middle?
-Which is the BEST substrate to use?
-How soon should we introduce the lay box? The vet said in about 1 week she should lay. (ps she shed yesterday)

2. After she lays her eggs, how soon should we move them to the incubator?
Ive read not too soon before its able to harden up a bit, and definately dont wait to long for them to dry up. I do know to mark which way is up and move as little as possible.

3. Incubator
-Should I go out and buy one, even though I do not plan on ever breeding again?
-Is it possible to incubate without an actual incubator as long as i can guarantee a steady temp of about 81 degrees?
(we obviously want females)
-If my only option to raise the baby(s) are to go out and buy one, I will do that. I want to do anything I can to give these eggs a chance. But ive read that it can be done without going out and buying one.
-What is the BEST substrate for the incubator.(i know people have different preferences but as a 1st time breeding newbie I would like advice)
-What humidity is the best to make sure they do not dry up?
Only open once a week to let some air in, but how ofter should i mist the surroundings to add moisture?

4. Hatchlings
-First day of hatching, if two should they each get their own tank or can a 10 or 20 gl house both for a bit?
-Do the same heating rules apply to newborns? Do I immediately place them in a tank with an undertank heater and red light with temps of 80ish on cool and 90-95 on hot?

Im sorry this is so long. I have honestly spent hours and hours since yesterday trying to research all I can to do this right. Please please any answers will help me!

general back info
-All my geckos will only ever be housed on paper towels
- We feed gut loaded crickets and mealworms everyday once a week dusted with calcium WITH d3
- Always fresh water and a cap of calcium with NO d3 available in their cages
- 2 reg hides and 1 humid hide in each cage


THANKYOU!

 

[Cayla & Adam]

ps:

I know there is a big chance that in actuality they could be infertile eggs. More than likely they will be because
-our girl is only about 9-10 months old
- Last time she was with the male was end of nov
- This will be her 1st time

but...

Ive heard it is possible to retain sperm and some one had previously said she could have absorbed her first clutch the last couple of weeks.
We just want to be prepared with anything! We would love to have babies to remember the male. We see this as a little miracle!

 

[Khrysty]

1. For the lay box
-which side of the tank should we put it on.. or the middle?
-Which is the BEST substrate to use?
-How soon should we introduce the lay box? The vet said in about 1 week she should lay. (ps she shed yesterday)

-I put mine on the warm side. The middle is fine, though. I do not recommend the cold side.
-coco fiber (eco earth, coconut husk, etc..) is a good substrate for the lay box. It's similar to soil and easy to dig in.
-I would introduce the lay box now. Females like to lay in it for a while before they lay their eggs to make sure it's the appropriate temperature.

2. After she lays her eggs, how soon should we move them to the incubator?
Ive read not too soon before its able to harden up a bit, and definately dont wait to long for them to dry up. I do know to mark which way is up and move as little as possible.

-You should remove them from her lay box as soon as you notice them. Only IMMEDIATELY after she lays, is it too soon. They harden pretty quickly. Really, they're fine for a few hours to a day or so but it's best to remove them as soon as possible.

3. Incubator
-Should I go out and buy one, even though I do not plan on ever breeding again?
-Is it possible to incubate without an actual incubator as long as i can guarantee a steady temp of about 81 degrees?
(we obviously want females)
-If my only option to raise the baby(s) are to go out and buy one, I will do that. I want to do anything I can to give these eggs a chance. But ive read that it can be done without going out and buying one.
-What is the BEST substrate for the incubator.(i know people have different preferences but as a 1st time breeding newbie I would like advice)
-What humidity is the best to make sure they do not dry up?
Only open once a week to let some air in, but how ofter should i mist the surroundings to add moisture?

-It isn't necessary, but building a homemade incubator will run you approximately the same price as a cheap hovabator
-Yes, it is possible. If you're going to build one I recommend doing it NOW so you can monitor temps and fix anything before the eggs arrive.
-Superhatch, I've heard, is the best. It's little clay balls. You only need to wet them once and they don't dry up. I don't think they mold either. I use perlite and have never had a problem, though.
-I don't measure humidity, and I know a lot of people on GF don't either. You should have a little condensation on the sides of the container, but not so much that it drips on the egg.
-Depending on your incubation medium, misting might not be necessary. Play it by ear. If the eggs are denting, you need more humidity. If they're molding, you have too much. They're actually hardier than people give them credit for. A little bit of denting early on won't kill them.

4. Hatchlings
-First day of hatching, if two should they each get their own tank or can a 10 or 20 gl house both for a bit?
-Do the same heating rules apply to newborns? Do I immediately place them in a tank with an undertank heater and red light with temps of 80ish on cool and 90-95 on hot?

-They can live together as clutchmates. If they hatch around the same time they should be around the same weight and no one should get bullied. A 10gal tank is a little too much room for a clutch so provide a LOT of hiding spaces. Don't use a 20gal. They'll get stressed.
-Yep, but you're gonna wanna keep it just a little humid at first--especially if they hatch out without first having absorbed their yolk sac.

Remember hatchlings won't eat until after their first shed. After that, it's fine to give them mealworms or small crix. Some people will feed small superworms as their first meal, too.

Also remember that these eggs might not be fertile. Especially because this is a first time female. I don't want you to get your hopes up and then see them dashed, ya know?

She may have some fertile eggs. I'd expect her to lay at least 3-4 clutches, maybe more. Make sure you've got room for them all.

And good luck to you!

 

[Mel&Keith]

Honestly, I would set up a lay box so she can lay the eggs then put the eggs straight in the freezer and throw them away. I know that some people feel that this is cruel or that they wouldn't have the heart to do it. But, there's a lot that goes along with producing babies. If you truly didn't want to breed them then not incubating them is the most fair thing to do for you and the potential babies. Hatching out babies can be exciting and rewarding but losing babies, having to euthanize them, and finding out that a gecko you've put in a home you thought was great turned out terribly can be really heartbreaking. Just a few things to think about.

 

[Cayla & Adam]

I am a very great parent. I would fully take care of any babies. The father of the babies was a big part of my life so if theres a chance we could hatch a baby would mean alot to us. Although we are newbies to breeding we are not newbies in the world or leopard geckos. I just would like to be prepared to my fullest ability when she lays and try to see it through. All expert breeders start at this very same beginning phase. I could never not give these babies a chance. Thanks for your advice but thats just so cruel and horrible

 

[adam&nikki]

its not cruel or horrible at all if your not ready to have hatchlings then do whats best fo them think of all the time and effort to have these eggs hatch or not then all the time to raise them it could be more then you can take but if you do want to try and hatch them set up a lay bin with coco fiber also get a incubator set up wish you all the luck but i do agree i would just freez them

 

[snakegirl]

just from reading how you put and say things, i think as long as you keep researching. you will do well. Now please know first time breeders tend to lay eggs but the eggs tend to go bad..:main_no: But keep your hopes up.


-which side of the tank should we put it on.. or the middle?


Anyplace is a good place, she will find it climb around dig, hang out, put it in there now so she knows where it is.





Which is the BEST substrate to use?




i use eco earth, you know the coconut stuff, make it a bit damp and there you go






-How soon should we introduce the lay box? The vet said in about 1 week she should lay. (ps she shed yesterday)



now would be best





2. After she lays her eggs, how soon should we move them to the incubator?
Ive read not too soon before its able to harden up a bit, and definately dont wait to long for them to dry up. I do know to mark which way is up and move as little as possible.

i have moved eggs the moment they are laid to a hour later or a whole day, as long as the lay box is Damp you shouldn't have to worry about drying out the eggs, You can move them when ever you like make sure you mark them before you touch them, put a little dot on them with a sharpie and then pick them up




3. Incubator
-Should I go out and buy one, even though I do not plan on ever breeding again?


i would, because there is more of a chance of her now laying for the whole season if the eggs are fertile, but if you can find a spot in the house that stays in the 80's you will be ok, but the Incubators are only like $40 bucks and well worth it.



-Is it possible to incubate without an actual incubator as long as i can guarantee a steady temp of about 81 degrees?
(we obviously want females)


Oh yeah! But i mean one Wrong move and you lose the heat and you might have a problem, i just tend to like to take as much stress off you as much as you can and get a Incubator



-If my only option to raise the baby(s) are to go out and buy one, I will do that. I want to do anything I can to give these eggs a chance. But ive read that it can be done without going out and buying one.


you can order one online, i paid like $40 and like i said you might have pairs of eggs now for the whole season :main_rolleyes:

-What is the BEST substrate for the incubator.(i know people have different preferences but as a 1st time breeding newbie I would like advice)

i used a whole bunch of stuff, perlite works wonders, You can get Hatch right, thats Already wet for you infact you can get a bag of it with the Incubator if you order online, all it is is perlite already damp (when you open the bag you will think its dry)


-What humidity is the best to make sure they do not dry up?
Only open once a week to let some air in, but how ofter should i mist the surroundings to add moisture?

Really i dont know! lol but normally there is enough water to keep it going without adding any, even though i do add a bit time to time, if you see Denting in the eggs, its to dry

4. Hatchlings
-First day of hatching, if two should they each get their own tank or can a 10 or 20 gl house both for a bit? as soon as there Fully out of the egg and cawling around,


you can put them in There own 6q or together its really up to you


-Do the same heating rules apply to newborns? Do I immediately place them in a tank with an undertank heater and red light with temps of 80ish on cool and 90-95 on hot?

i keep mine at a 80's Warm side 70's cool side, but thats up to you too


-All my geckos will only ever be housed on paper towels

- We feed gut loaded crickets and mealworms everyday once a week dusted with calcium WITH d3
- Always fresh water and a cap of calcium with NO d3 available in their cages
- 2 reg hides and 1 humid hide in each cage

Sounds good.

 

[Mel&Keith]

All expert breeders start at this very same beginning phase. I could never not give these babies a chance. Thanks for your advice but thats just so cruel and horrible

Actually, many expert breeders do their research, make sure that BOTH geckos are the appropriate age and size, set up their incubators and hatchling racks before they purposely put their first pair together.

I never said you were a bad "parent" but when you start your post with "accidental pregnancy" and "we never planned on breeding" and that you only intended to keep Leopards as pets then I think you should understand the bad parts that go along with breeding. If you think freezing eggs is so cruel and horrible then think about how cruel and horrible is to have to freeze a sick, or deformed baby that isn't going to make it. It's really heartbreaking to cut open an egg that's way past due and find a perfectly formed, dead baby.

I don't really think there's an excuse for "accidental" matings from experienced keepers to be honest. If you're not new to keeping Leopards and know how to keep them then I just don't understand how you had a male and female that were big enough to breed living together and not know it. Males are obviously sexable by 30g.

 

[janjgeckos]

Glad I dont ask for help much on here

 

[Khrysty]

Glad I dont ask for help much on here

Not all exchanges are as heated/aggressive as this one turned out to be. We all have good intentions but this conversation became a little more unsupportive than it should have been, despite that. Please don't let that discourage you (or anyone for that matter) from asking for help.

 

[Cayla & Adam]

Honestly i have recieved many private messages from people telling me not to pay attention to you know who. Also when they were housed together they were both under 10 months and we thought both females. The second we noticed one was a definate male we moved him out. I would never put a sick gecko in the fReezer. Ever. I would bring it to the vet and have it put to sleep. What i meant about breedees being in the same spot, i meant theres always a first time for them to learn. I do not plan on breeding in the future, but by some miracle my little girl is pregnant and i would like o give my best and try to provide for her and the babies the best way i can. I researched and everythikg i didnt feel comfortable on or get an exact answer on i decided to try to ask for help. Just because there is onr jerk on her does not mean lm discouraged. I have recieVed excellent advice on here and people want to help me and are on my side. Thank you so far to everyone who has responded on here and through private messages. I truly am
trying my best to learn in my 1-2 week short time
span before the eggs are layed

ps- sorry for any typos im on my iphone and sometimes typing paragraphs is not the easiest thing o do

 

[Gregg M]

Honestly i have recieved many private messages from people telling me not to pay attention to you know who.

"You know who" happens to be a mod here on the site and should be addressed with respect... She is one of the people who help keep this site clean and respectful... This one sentence I quoted can be looked at as antagonistic and could result in an infraction... In the future, please be mindful about how you speak to a mod or anyone else on this site...

Secondly, "you know who" happens to be an experienced breeder who is clueing you in on the reality of what can happen and what your accidental breeding can bring when you are not prepared or ready... Her point of view should not be discounted... It is the reality of the situation at hand... And freezing eggs is not cruel in the slightest... You do not even have to freeze them... You can just not incubate them...

With that being said, good luck and I hope everything works out for you...

 

[KelliH]

Glad I dont ask for help much on here

The OP was given advice by a very experienced breeder. It was that person's opinion, and she was giving an open and honest one. I respect that. Maybe some should do so also rather than getting their feelings hurt because someone is being honest and forthright. Think about it.

 

[Gregg M]

ps:

I know there is a big chance that in actuality they could be infertile eggs. More than likely they will be because
-our girl is only about 9-10 months old!

What does that mean??? If she is mature enough to ovulate, she is mature enough to lay fertile eggs... Contrary to popular belief, leopard geckos are fertile very early on in life...

- Last time she was with the male was end of nov

Females not only can, but will store sperm...

- This will be her 1st time

I have had first time breeder females produce as much a 16 fertile eggs for me...

I We see this as a little miracle!

Actually it is not a miracle... It is the result of having a male and female leopard gecko together... It is pretty straight foward science... Male bred to female, sperm introduced... Female ovulates, sperm fertilizes egg... Egg drops into egg folicle... Female lays egg... That is basically all that happend...

 

[Cayla & Adam]

Honestly i am not saying anytji bad about the mod. She gave professional advice, even if i didnt take it doesnt mean i dont respect their years of knowledge. I came on here with questions to help my and not diacourage me because i wanted to learn and be prepared. I wanted help and not to feel as if im doing something wrong. My litle babiea were BABIES when they were together and the girl grew but actually the boy stopped growing and had some sort on disease the doctor said where he will never grow- so i completely doubt he was even 30g. We separared them after a couple months because we could tell one was a male eventhough we were told was a girl and he didnt seem well. The girl almost doubled him in size when we finally put him to sleep 2 weeks ago. The fact that she could be pregnant with my late males babies to me is a complete surprise and miracle. He was so little he had a developing disease and he has passed on. You have to understand when we took the girl to the vet 2 daya ago we thought she was sick because she hadnt eaten in about 2 weeks. Fearing the worst we were so overjoyed to find out not only was she very healthy but she was pregnant. More than likely these will noy be fertile eggs. Ill say 90% chance. But I wanted to be prepapred for anything so I came on here to find ou what I could learn o be prepapred for anything. I wanted to be able to raise these babies if there was some chance i could. People sent me messages to not give up or get discouraged. Im almost positive that these could never have been the males therefore i do believe my girl remains a virgin. Its just bizarre how someone coming here for genuine help could feel attacked by trying to learn.

 

[Shera]

If you decide to go forward and try to incubate, I wish you the very best. I think you should consider that whatever was wrong with Neely might be genetic, and could be passed onto his young. I hope for your sake that's not the case, but it's also something to consider before going forward.

 

[Riyo]

Throwing my two cents in here.

Nobody has attacked you but I am going to say this to you,

"Emotions are not reasons"

Also...

I just had a first time female lay me two fertile eggs. You do realize that there is most likely going to be more than one clutch, right? Another female of mine is currently carrying her sixth clutch. Do not be so sure that your ill male did not breed your female, either. Instinct is an amazing thing.

I wish you the best on your endeavor and hopefully your female is only ovulating or carrying infertile eggs. You have recieved some very insightful and useful information here and please keep it in mind.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

My advice is if your female was looking sick enough to take her to the vet then you should be watching her weight with these eggs. If she starts to dull in color or lose too much weight you should start giving her slurry.
Just curious, did they do a fecal exam on the male or female? What he had could possibly effect her and if she is gravid/ovulating this could make her more susceptible to whatever the male had. So keep an eye on her, laying takes a lot out of the female. Not trying to scare you, just a heads up

And I don't want to fan the flames but after a couple of posts using "accidental" and "miracle" it becomes provocative because it was a situation that would've been prevented with proper quarantine and housing individually. Also using accidental and miracle implies it is something out of your control and is not really taking responsibility for the fact that you put your female slightly at risk. While it doesn't help your situation to point that out now, it could help someone else reading the thread from making the same mistake. I can respect that you are trying to make the best of this situation but just trying to say see it from both sides. And goodluck with everything!

 

[marraeco8311]

HEY... JUST AN IDEA>>>>> Talk to a very local pet store, reptile preferred. Many are willing to incubate eggs for people. Some charge most do not. Or they may be willing to incubate all for you and keep one of them... Try talking to them..... It may be a good option if you don't plan to breed in the future.

 

[Cayla & Adam]

We took her to the vet not because she seemed sick. She would eat all day if she has the choice and the past 2 weeks she only ate one mealworm. We didnt wanna take any chances. And we thought they were both girls ad they were very young. We found out neely was a boy and separated them. He was a tiny little thing still eventhough he was like 7 months. Cali (the girl) is very healthy the vet said. To me the miracle is that neelys dead and cali could be carrying his babies. Not that shes pregnant. It was just totallu unexpected and we are very happy that theres a chance. Once again thanks the most for the private messages- they are very helpful!