The Giant Debate???

[nevinm]

thanks marcia. i was just trying to make a point with what i had said. i know what i want to get from "my" line of giants. i hope you understand why i put my in " ". anyway when the liberty and monster bells will be sold, they will be held to my standerds and in hopes everyone likes those standerds and hopefully this will incuradge people to do the same with the ones that are from the giants they have, and not just start grabbing randomly large animals and fallowing them. as for your number one comment, i still offer one of my arguments that has yet to me mentioned by anyone..... what was your largest gecko back in 98'? even if worse case senario (for my side of the argument) lets say it is a sub specieses. that would still be because of genetics that were reliesed to the public in 2000ish. as for your number 2, thats what i was refering to up above

 

[eric]

And we have to just keep in mind its ok to disagree on this one cause in the end no one can ever prove one way or another what it is.

Ouch!

Just keep it all nice and leave the ethics out of it.

Not going there!:main_no: LOL

the morph is what it is and something that we might not ever realy understand.

Well I don't understand!, "no one can ever prove one way or another what it is" but then said "might not ever realy understand" Might leaves room for HOPE. Its kind of contradicting, Am I wrong? That doesn't bode well for people working on the "Giants".

 

[nevinm]

Ouch!
Not going there!:main_no: LOL

Well I don't understand!, "no one can ever prove one way or another what it is" but then said "might not ever realy understand" Might leaves room for HOPE. Its kind of contradicting, Am I wrong? That doesn't bode well for people working on the "Giants".

personally i dont think we will figure out the original animals. but we can hope. and also refine....

 

[eric]

Nevin we bought our first gecko in 97'. A normal .I don't know what she weighted when we got her. But she weights about 85-90 grams now. and is 9 inches long. I know you probably want opinions from bigger breeders. Hope that helps.

 

[nevinm]

that does eric and i appriciate it, but that just goes along with what me and matt are saying. she is 80-90 grams. but only 9". those 1-2" make a big differance in body type. if one of my animals begins to look well over sized, thats fine as long as it is 10-11". my four giant females het bell are all averaging 10-10 1/2 inches. and wiegh about 90-95g.

ps. im not saying your female is fat... so please dont take it that way

 

[eric]

Glad to help! And again best of luck Nevin!:main_thumbsup:

But she is fat! LOL!

 

[nevinm]

great, that just proves my point!!! thanks soooo much

 

[Mel&Keith]

Let's please keep this thread on track and free of attitude and sarcasm. This is your last "free" warning!

 

[nevinm]

mel you must have taken something i said out of context. everything i said was sincere

 

[Mel&Keith]

It was just a general warning, Nevin.

 

[nevinm]

ok, i mean it was staying on track, i just got worried.

 

[Paco]

Nevin. I answered you question several pages back. My biggest Male in 2001- 2002 Was Banded Tremper Male who weighed about 90+ Grams. He was 3 I think and he was not Fat he was big, over 10". Everyone that saw him thought he was huge for back then.

As for the Giants. What they are may remain a mystery. They are out there and they are only going to get Bigger and Better. I think they are here to stay and will make a "BIG" comeback in the future, if not the near future.JMO

 

[nevinm]

paco, you were one person, and not really one of those arguing against the giant gene. i want the people who are fully against it to tell me what there biggest and average sized geckos were.

 

[eric]

What I don't understand is how can a Morph be a Mystery? Somebody has to know.

Question: Was there a lot of Mad scientist type gecko breeding going on back then, where nobody documented there creations?

 

[Paco]

What I don't understand is how can a Morph be a Mystery? Somebody has to know.

Question: Was there a lot of Mad scientist type gecko breeding going on back then, where nobody documented there creations?

Eric... would you think that and I wondered the same thing. When I contacted Steve to ask him if he had statistical data from his breedings here was his short reply.

third party quote removed

While Producing over 3000+ Leos every year and dealing with several other species of reptiles I could see where having the time to write down all that data just might not happen.

I had a hard time keeping up with it when I had 80 Leo's and 25 Balls. I could not imagine having to do it for 4000+ animals. It would take an entire staff just to record data. Who could afford that?

 

[eric]

Thank you Paco, That's kind of what I originally thought. So big breeders produce it than we refine it, do I have this right? So Matt was, right about that!

*This was probably old news, but very interesting non the less.*

 

[Paco]

Thank you Paco, That's kind of what I originally thought. So big breeders produce it than we refine it, do I have this right? So Matt was, right about that!

*This was probably old news, but very interesting non the less.*

To some it might be "old news" to other it's "New, news".

I would have to say that the big breeders refine as well they just don't have the ability and or most likely the time or space to do what the smaller breeder can. As far as recording data and or getting to be very close to all of their reptiles on a regular basis. With so many animals, you only have so much time with each.

third party quote removed

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Paco, please DO NOT use second party quotes here. Without the actual originator making comments that are 'public', it could be taken as hear-say. We want, and need, statistical FACTS.

"Wouldn't it be wonderful to have real data! Unfortunately, most of us don't have time or space to accurately log the outcomes of all these crosses. In order to really assess what is going on, we need a large enough sample size to make statistical sense. Otherwise, we can only go on what we qualitatively see."

Assuming you are quoting Steve Sykes, which myself AND Kelli told you not to do, he is validating what the rest of us 'skeptics' have been saying in this thread!
To paraphrase:
"We really don't have any statistical, qualtitative data to prove or disprove the 'giant' as a legitimate, genetic morph and we are only going by what we have observed. Wouldn't it be great if we DID have that statistical information!"

 

[nevinm]

paco, you just said the exact problem with big breeders. they dont take the time to sort through when they should... when the babies hatch. they wait and sort through when they have time. thats when morphs, and lines get switched because they miss look something. that is the problem. what is so hard about keeping eggs sepporate containors, and putting them in marked bins as soon as they hatch? i dont see what is so hard about that. i think if your going to use the excuse of having too meny animals to do that with (and i belieave its just a matter of responsabilty), than they need to cut back on what they have. on the other hand thats not what this thread is about. its about the giants..... stay on target

 

[Paco]

Paco, please DO NOT use second party quotes here. Without the actual originator making comments that are 'public', it could be taken as here-say. We want, and need, statistical FACTSAssuming you are quoting Steve Sykes, which myself AND Kelli told you not to do, he is validating what the rest of us 'skeptics' have been saying in this thread!
To paraphrase:
"We really don't have any statistical, qualtitative data to prove or disprove the 'giant' as a legitimate, genetic morph and we are only going by what we have observed. Wouldn't it be great if we DID have that statistical information!"

Sorry Marcia. I told Steve Sykes what is going on here and have his permission. I did not think the small quote was a big deal and was related to the thread. I will not let it happen again.

Pull it if you feel necessary. Sorry again. I thought a single sentence quote would not be a big deal. I guess a could have paraphrased it and should have.

And As may Quote Said you are not going to get the Data it from the Big breeder's they don't have the time or resources.

It is up to the small breeder to do this.