Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
- Messages
- 12,730
- Location
- SF Bay Area
Precisely! I know a lot of the posts in this thread seemed to be "breeder-bashing", and it is difficult to read between the lines when trying to understand what our message is when we post. But the reason "I" am not sure whether or not the 'giant' is a legitimate, genetic morph is because the big breeders have a different priority... it's producing geckos! After all these years, I do not always take what is said as fact. It is the smaller-scale breeders that actually do the work of morph originators to prove out the genetics after all the money is made.
Don't get me wrong. I am NOT condemning anyone form making money at breeding geckos! Heck, I want to make money at my work, too! The problem I have is that every time a 'new' morph is introduced, the originator of the morph runs to the bank with all the money they have made from the buyers that jump on the initial band-wagon, and it is the secondary, smaller breeders that usually do the 'proving out' of the morph over the next couple of years.
Now, when other 'big' breeders are on that initial band-wagon and are only interested in mass-producing them in order to capitalize on the 'wave', they are not always inclined to pay attention or keep statistical records of how the genetics of the morph behave. It is the smaller and/or passionate breeders who are truly interested in the morph that are the ones that we rely on to provide the public with the accurate, statistical data regarding the genetics of this 'new' morph.
Well, I didn't see this happen with the "Giant". What I observed (which is just as valid as what the breeders working with the morph observed) was a huge SNAFU in the original call of the morph being recessive. An entire year passed before the smaller breeders, who paid TOP DOLLAR, made a contrary discovery... that being that the giant wasn't recessive at all! In the meantime, hundreds, maybe thousands, of these geckos were bred and sold, crossed into other non-'giant' geckos, and if there was ever truly a genetic basis with these geckos it was by and far lost for the most part.
If there are TRUE genetic 'giants' left out there, they will need to be proven all over again IMHO. As a result of all the greed and outcrossing, I personally have a HUGE amount of skepticism when someone says they have a "Giant", or more often "possible Giant". First of all, because I do not feel the genetics were ever truly proven out, and second of all because we are now growing geckos bigger and bigger every year. What is the criteria for a gecko being a 'giant'?
It has become the responsibility and challenge of the smaller breeders today to take it upon themselves to prove and preserve this morph. It will have to be a passion, because there is certainly not much credence (or money!) in working with Giants... especially for the morph-savvy keepers we have in the hobby today. I have a LOT more trust in the breeders working with morphs who can keep records and have something concrete to back up their findings rather than a breeder who had the morph 'pop up' in their lines and can only guess what genetic statistical analysis that is behind the numbers they produce.
P
Paco
Guest
Marcia... Excellent post!!! All very Valid Points!!!!
There are Big breeders out there with as Much passion as the small Breeder don't forget that. They did not start out big, they got that way thru hard work. Otherwise the they would still not be in business. There a few that produce Beautiful 100% healthy animals. Cutting edge as well. That right there shows me they care. Maybe not as much as the small breeder or in a different fashion but it shows they care never the less. This is business for some and not a hobby and the priorities are much different for both.
Nevin... I am not defending big breeders actions but I can understand why certain things don't get done. Like I said they don't have the luxury we do of having a small collection. Small to me is anything under 100 breeders. Try going and taking care Of Steve Sykes collection for 1 week see how inclined your are to write at the end of the day each day data for 1000's of animals you just worked with that day.
There are True "Giants" out there. Come on people post them up!!!
There are Big breeders out there with as Much passion as the small Breeder don't forget that. They did not start out big, they got that way thru hard work. Otherwise the they would still not be in business. There a few that produce Beautiful 100% healthy animals. Cutting edge as well. That right there shows me they care. Maybe not as much as the small breeder or in a different fashion but it shows they care never the less. This is business for some and not a hobby and the priorities are much different for both.
Nevin... I am not defending big breeders actions but I can understand why certain things don't get done. Like I said they don't have the luxury we do of having a small collection. Small to me is anything under 100 breeders. Try going and taking care Of Steve Sykes collection for 1 week see how inclined your are to write at the end of the day each day data for 1000's of animals you just worked with that day.
There are True "Giants" out there. Come on people post them up!!!
Last edited by a moderator:
P
Paco
Guest
I have couple of problems with the Bandwagon.
First off is these " Bandwagons" are in every aspect of the trade and not something new. Also they are not allways started buy the Big breeders who are out for money. They are started out by small breeder's who are lucky enough to be in that position. Are they in it for they money. You bet. Otherwise they most likely would not spend the Un-godly amounts of money it takes to get onto these new projects sometimes. I would not spend $150,000( thats how much the Original Platty Daddy ball python Cost) for an animal if I did not think I could make money on it but there are never any Guarantees on this so it is a risk.
Second is all the people that are willing to Jump on these bandwagons(myself being one of them). Who does not want to work with the newest and coolest morphs out there? I know I do and I jump on that wagon every chance I get.
The problem here is we are willing to jump on full well knowing there is allways risks involved. Proven or unproven Morphs, people are more than willing to jump on these bandwagons when they pop up, full well knowing the risks. So who is responsible at that point? No one is holding a gun to any ones head making them buy something they all ready knows has a certain level of risk involved. JMO
The Enigma was not proven and had more risk involved than the original giants but people were more than happy to Jump on that Bandwagon. knowing what they knew has happened in the past. But they still did it. So bandwagons are here to stay. Get used to them. You don't have to ride if you don't want, you just get left behind sometimes.
First off is these " Bandwagons" are in every aspect of the trade and not something new. Also they are not allways started buy the Big breeders who are out for money. They are started out by small breeder's who are lucky enough to be in that position. Are they in it for they money. You bet. Otherwise they most likely would not spend the Un-godly amounts of money it takes to get onto these new projects sometimes. I would not spend $150,000( thats how much the Original Platty Daddy ball python Cost) for an animal if I did not think I could make money on it but there are never any Guarantees on this so it is a risk.
Second is all the people that are willing to Jump on these bandwagons(myself being one of them). Who does not want to work with the newest and coolest morphs out there? I know I do and I jump on that wagon every chance I get.
The problem here is we are willing to jump on full well knowing there is allways risks involved. Proven or unproven Morphs, people are more than willing to jump on these bandwagons when they pop up, full well knowing the risks. So who is responsible at that point? No one is holding a gun to any ones head making them buy something they all ready knows has a certain level of risk involved. JMO
The Enigma was not proven and had more risk involved than the original giants but people were more than happy to Jump on that Bandwagon. knowing what they knew has happened in the past. But they still did it. So bandwagons are here to stay. Get used to them. You don't have to ride if you don't want, you just get left behind sometimes.
Baoh
New Member
- Messages
- 917
- Location
- Saint Louis, MO
I'm looking forward to more work with this like Nevin and folks like him are doing. I have a a gecko that was sold to me as a Giant Mack Snow that is only nine inches in length, but has supposedly gone on to produce Giant offspring for the breeder I bought him from. I also have a female that is supposedly a Super Giant (that is het for other traits) that is supposedly from a SGxSG pairing via a breeder whose adults come directly from the "discoverer" of the Giants. She hatched, I think, in August of 2008 and is just under seven inches long right now. Time will tell how big she'll actually get. The "Giant" MS does look different in terms of the shape of his head and overall body look in comparison to my other leos, but I just don't know about him. I'm worried about putting the money into using him to pair up with another supposed SG at some point in the future if he's not really a Giant. That would be a waste to my idea for the project if he isn't.
Each of my RAPTORs and my DB are all around nine inches long, too, and they don't look like Giants to me, but they are not supposed to be. The Giant Mack Snow may have just been too busy mating to eat adequately while developing before I bought him, but then again....
Anyway, it's going to be at least another year or so before I will even consider the female "SG" I have ready to breed, so I hope others generate enough data during the interim.
I may pair the Giant Mack Snow with a non-Giant Mack Snow female to see if anything interesting results in terms of hatchling size. *shrug*
Each of my RAPTORs and my DB are all around nine inches long, too, and they don't look like Giants to me, but they are not supposed to be. The Giant Mack Snow may have just been too busy mating to eat adequately while developing before I bought him, but then again....
Anyway, it's going to be at least another year or so before I will even consider the female "SG" I have ready to breed, so I hope others generate enough data during the interim.
I may pair the Giant Mack Snow with a non-Giant Mack Snow female to see if anything interesting results in terms of hatchling size. *shrug*
Mammoth (this pic was taken early in his life) reached 135g
Ruby reached 112g bred at 72 grams, after breeding she was 95. I have never seen or heard of another gecko gaining that much weight as she layed eggs. Ruby passed away last year. of unknow causes.
Baoh
New Member
- Messages
- 917
- Location
- Saint Louis, MO
I have a relevant question concerning origin.
Has anyone ever seen a head pattern like that of E. angramainyu surface in any or a significant number of Giants? Especially the originals way back when. While it's not foolproof, you can imagine that, were a macularius x angramainyu cross the source, as some believe, then you would have occasionally seen that pattern pop up from time to time in early breedings. Especially with Giant to Giant or Super Giant to Super Giant with the first few generations when the morph was fresh and depending upon the genetic nature of that pattern.
Nothing to pin down, but something to consider.
Has anyone ever seen a head pattern like that of E. angramainyu surface in any or a significant number of Giants? Especially the originals way back when. While it's not foolproof, you can imagine that, were a macularius x angramainyu cross the source, as some believe, then you would have occasionally seen that pattern pop up from time to time in early breedings. Especially with Giant to Giant or Super Giant to Super Giant with the first few generations when the morph was fresh and depending upon the genetic nature of that pattern.
Nothing to pin down, but something to consider.
KelliH
New Member
- Messages
- 6,638
- Location
- Fort Worth, TX
Paco, I told you not to bring a third party quote into this thread and you went and did it anyway. We have already had a problem with you doing this before, and if you do it again you will be going on a vacation from this website.
nevinm
Moyer's Monsters
- Messages
- 2,584
- Location
- bethlehem PA
im sorry i can not let this slide. if need be i will pm paco about this. but this is my point in exactly what i had said paco. if they cant take the time to mark the eggs, and put them in bins so they know where they are coming from instaid of taking a risk later on than they need to cut the collection down. i have over a 100 breeders, and i kno exactly what egg came from what female. i know the exact day they were laid, and i know the exact day that i moved them from the female incubtor to the male incubator to make the colors brighter. i do all this and i work a full time job and i go to collage more than half time. i have to belieave my work load is just as much with someone who has thousnds of animals. and i still manage to do what i believe is the right thing to do and not water down any possable lines by miss looking an animal that should have been noticed when it was hatched.....
kelli, marcia, thats all im saying about that im back on to the giant thing. again im sorry.
matt, ruby is freakn awsome and beautiful.
eric, baoh, thank you for the kind worlds
nev
ok a little proof of maybe the giant gean at work. :main_thumbsup:
in 2007 I bred Mammoth (moose's full brother) my "super giant"(if you will) to a few big females from the "giant line" I held back some babies from the cross to see how big they would get. I sold off the males when they were small so have no clue how they turned out. I kept back a few females, because the plan was to breed the females back to Mammoth to get "bigger geckos".
in late 2007 the females got to about 60 grams give or take and started to ovulate. At that time i had just got my enigma het Raptor and the big thing was the enigmas so I put the " big geckos" on hold for the enigmas.
In late 08 the females started to ovulate again and I picked the biggest ones. they didn’t have that long look to them but were good sized females. this time i wanted to breed Mammoth with them. so i put him in and got eggs blah blah blah.... The eggs hatched and the babies did look a little bigger. but i have noticed that that most first and second clutches the babies are a bit bigger so i didn’t think any thing of. the first babies from this hatched out the week after Thanksgiving. So that was a little over a month ago. so far there are only a few babies these two in the pics below are the ones that are noticeably bigger. some of the babies are really big and some are just a little bigger then what a baby the same age would be.
As you can see in the pictures the two "giant line" babies have a different look about them the Mack raptor baby. The "giant line" babies are a lot "longer looking" also they are 15 grams at a little over a month old and to me that is a little bigger then your average baby.
there is some proof now you can make your own opinion on this "morph"
I don’t know how big these babies will get but I will let you all know. I am not selling these ones I want to see what we can do with this. If it is something that we can work on or not.
in 2007 I bred Mammoth (moose's full brother) my "super giant"(if you will) to a few big females from the "giant line" I held back some babies from the cross to see how big they would get. I sold off the males when they were small so have no clue how they turned out. I kept back a few females, because the plan was to breed the females back to Mammoth to get "bigger geckos".
in late 2007 the females got to about 60 grams give or take and started to ovulate. At that time i had just got my enigma het Raptor and the big thing was the enigmas so I put the " big geckos" on hold for the enigmas.
In late 08 the females started to ovulate again and I picked the biggest ones. they didn’t have that long look to them but were good sized females. this time i wanted to breed Mammoth with them. so i put him in and got eggs blah blah blah.... The eggs hatched and the babies did look a little bigger. but i have noticed that that most first and second clutches the babies are a bit bigger so i didn’t think any thing of. the first babies from this hatched out the week after Thanksgiving. So that was a little over a month ago. so far there are only a few babies these two in the pics below are the ones that are noticeably bigger. some of the babies are really big and some are just a little bigger then what a baby the same age would be.
As you can see in the pictures the two "giant line" babies have a different look about them the Mack raptor baby. The "giant line" babies are a lot "longer looking" also they are 15 grams at a little over a month old and to me that is a little bigger then your average baby.
there is some proof now you can make your own opinion on this "morph"
I don’t know how big these babies will get but I will let you all know. I am not selling these ones I want to see what we can do with this. If it is something that we can work on or not.
P
Paco
Guest
Nevin... Excellent work!!! Don't get me wrong As I said I am not defending their actions I can see why they happen is all.
Also Lets get something straight. I said Steve Just puts babies away, I never said he does not keep track of breedings, or eggs laid, or that he does not label date and organize his stuff. He might do all of that and more( and if he does his work load is VERY Big), he just does not track the entire life of the babies is all. So For you to assume he does not because I make the comment that he puts the babies up after they hatch is not correct thing to do.
You should ask these breeders their procedures before you say something that might not be true and make them look bad or unprofessional.
P
Paco
Guest
Matt... Awesome Looking Gecko's. The Giants Exist for sure if people don't want to see it whatever. Their loss. The Data will come eventually. It will need to be worked with and refined a bit and will be a project for those who wish to undertake it. I look forward to it.
B
bGeckos
Guest
*
Last edited by a moderator:
B
bGeckos
Guest
*
Last edited by a moderator:
B
bGeckos
Guest
*
Last edited by a moderator:
B
bGeckos
Guest
*
Last edited by a moderator:
B
bGeckos
Guest
*
Last edited by a moderator:
nevinm
Moyer's Monsters
- Messages
- 2,584
- Location
- bethlehem PA
paco, i did not assume anything. you said flat out that he goes through later on when he has time so sepporate by morph and size later in their lives. you were the one who said it not me. this is something that can be taken over to the ethics forums if you'ld like. i dont wnat this thread to be closed even though i think it will be becuase of the last 4 posts by someone ive never heard of
Visit our friends
