The WORST season in Golden Gate Geckos' history!

[GeckoJunkie]

Paul, Albey, first Ill say to both of you as well, Thanks for being big enough to speak up. Whether you are having problems or not. It is the first step in finding out if there is a 'problem' or not. By comparing notes from different people from different areas of the country. Also whether you have had problems or not. Although Albey, you have been feeding crickets, Paul has been feeding mealies. I like Kelli would love to know where your mealies came from. I do not think it is just one big coincidence. I will be interested to see how the latter half of my season goes now that I am not feeding mealies, and what mealies I do feed are the ones my wife has raised.

 

[Kangas Kritters]

My 2008

For the past three-four years I have fed crickets to my geckos exclusively. This year with a new human hatchling daughter (February), I decided to try mealworms to save me time on feeding and removing uneaten crickets. I also have a male that got a bacterial stomach infection, which was thought to be traced back to pinworms from crickets. (He has fully recovered

1) All of my females started ovulating later than I wanted (March) except for one bell albino who started laying eggs in December. She's done now and laid 9 clutches, most being one egg clutches. She ended up having 7/10 eggs successfully hatch. Interesting note is that the three bad eggs were the ones laid last when she was switched to mealworms. Laying one egg clutches though is something else since she was on crickets for most of her egg laying time.

2) I did or still am breeding 9 other females. My hatch stats thus far for all 10 females are as follows: 94 laid eggs, 27 either infertile, molded during incubation or dead in egg. Only one born with spinal deformity, died after third day. No enigma circling out of all hatched enigma babies. 9 of these are still laying eggs so 94 laid eggs is just a so far number.

3) Since the mealworm shortage, I have tried superworms. Egg viability has increased tremendously in this two month time. Two females that were laying water balloons have now been laying fertile eggs that hatch! I like that superworms are much more active and can be kept at room temps. They eat everything. I give them raw oatmeal, banana peals and carrots, that's all.

4) I am however a little concerned about the larger superworms and the geckos being able to digest the hard shells. I imagined that this would be a temporary situation, but now am strongly tempted to just go back to crickets as my primary food source with an occasional superworm feeding like once a week if at all.

5) I also breed ball pythons and even though they don't eat insects, I have had a rough time with their eggs this year as well. Out of 5 clutches, I lost two completely due to mold. I hatched out 7/8 from one clutch. Another clutch is hatching as I write this with two babies completely out of their eggs and 6 that still need to slit their eggs. One clutch I dropped when removing the female from her eggs and lost 5 of those eggs immediately. The other three eggs seem to be fine, but I won't be surprised if they never hatch.

Earlier in the season I figured something environmental was going on with slow ovulations and such. My common problem is mold for both pythons and gecko eggs even though my water/vermiculite mixture hasn't changed over the past few years. Just thought I would share my season so far.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Thanks for the detailed information, Charlton! It's strange that you are having problems with your BP eggs as well...

Actually, Superworms have less chitin in their ectoskeletons than mealworms do, and their meat to shell ratio is higher.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I don't know if this is relevant for now or not but Keith remembered that in 1995 or 1996 he had several clutches of Leopard Geckos and Bearded Dragons hatch at the same time. He fed them all mealworms and all of them died. Unfortunately there weren't forums around like this back then to see if anyone else had the same problem.

 

[GeckoGuru]

I haven't had any deformities, I have had one weird thing happen this year though.

I bred one female this year that eats exclusively mealworms, every single one of her 11 hatchlings turned out to be female, and 6 were incubated at 90 degrees for males!! She laid 16 eggs and 5 turned no good.

 

[sschind]

First off, I'm sure someone will take this in a way that will offend them and honestly that is not how I am intending it. Second, it is entirely possible, even probable that the mealworm shortage and the plethora of non hatching eggs and deformed babies are related.

My comments are simply made to perhaps shed a bit more light on the subject and make you stop and think about a few other possibilities. I am no genetics expert and I don't play one on TV so everything I am about to say comes from a single genetics class in college about 15 years ago and from every day observances from being in the reptile hobby for 20 years. I am certain that there are people reading this that have far more experience in this field than I and I would certainly welcome and appreciate comments and evidence that either support my ideas or refute them. I am not providing any scientific evidence to back up what I am saying simply because I am not a scientist and I do not have any at hand. However, I do not believe that anything I am saying is beyond understanding by anyone who reads it here so Ii don't feel I need to provide any. Also, I am not presenting anything I am saying as scientific fact so I don't feel that what I am saying is diminished in any way by not having empirical evidence to back it up. enough with the disclaimers and on with the show.

Every year more and more people are getting into the breeding game and every year more and more combinations are being produced. It does not surprise me that in some circles depressed breeding results are being observed. Is it possible that many of these genetic combination are simply not meant to thrive. I know one response will be that you have all bred these same animals in years past with nothing like the results you are getting this year. That may be true but what about the genetics of your new breeders. The new stock you are putting into production. The one new animal with that one new mutation that you can't wait to see combined with your other animals to see what will come out. How is that animal and the combinations it is providing affecting your stock

I am not talking about inbreeding. Just that certain genetic crosses and combinations can produce lethal results and birth defects. Do we know exactly what changes in the genetic code produces a particular change in morphology. I dare say no. If we don't know what is causing the changes how can we possibly know how a combination of these changes will effect anything. There are reasons why wild type animals are the way they are. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has made them that way and for a reason. Mutant combinations of genes have most certainly been produced in the past in these wild populations and to what result? They have not survived. We all know how albinism affects an animals ability to survive. They stick out like a sore thumb and are eaten thus their genes are not passed on. What about less conspicuous mutations however. Perhaps enigmas haven't developed in the wild populations because the combinations of genes has proven lethal in the egg.

In my opinion, the farther we go down the morph road the more common this will become. As we get into more and more genetic combinations that simply do not show up in nature I think we can expect even more of this. I won't say "things that nature never intended" because that sounds like I am preaching. Besides I do not believe that nature "intends" anything. It just provides a venue for things to happen and strange genetic mutations in general do not happen because for any number of reasons it is not beneficial to the species for them to happen.

Again, I want to restate that I don't think the mealworm factor is mere coincidence. I just think that lower fertility rates, and higher mortality rates can be expected the farther we stray from the genetic norm. Not to the level we are experiencing this year perhaps, and no my theory does nothing to address those who are not experiencing such things but still I think it is something to keep in mind.

 

[Kangas Kritters]

Marcia...

...first, you're welcome. Second, thank you for the info. on the superworms.

Now for the general public: Why don't more people use supers as their worm diet? In my experience with supers, they are more active, thus more attractive to the geckos, they don't die as easily and they seem to eat (gutload) more. I don't mean to take the original post down a different path, but if there aren't any known deficiencies with supers they seem like a perfect alternative, especially in this current situation. I know they're typically a little bit more money, but isn't the well being of our "Kritters" priceless? A wise woman once said "if you can't afford the vet, don't have the pet". This alone might not solve the entire problem, but if the mealworms are causing ANY type of problems for and in our geckos wouldn't this be worth a shot?

 

[eric]

Very well put Charlton!

 

[Mel&Keith]

In response to sschind's post. Almost all of our females who were producing follicles and then not laying were proven breeders, most of them common morphs that have been around for a while and pairings that we made last year. I even lost one of my females who had been a great breeder in the past. She wasn't eggbound, she had always been a great eater then stopped eating her worms I just found her dead in her tub a couple of days later. Maybe it was just a weird random occurrence...I don't know. I also don't know how pairings that we made last year were so prolific and this year never produced a single egg. The babies that did hatch and were started on mealworms did not grow at the pace they had in previous years but now that they're all on crickets, they're thriving. It's all really weird...

In response to Charlton's post: We tried feeding supers for a while and only 3 Leos out of our entire collection would eat them so we gave up. So far *knock on wood* we haven't had any ill effects from crickets. Hopefully that luck will continue.

 

[bro paul]

Just a thought...
Myself and other breeders I've talked to over the years have experienced poor production rates when just about any change is made, whether it be changing brands of calcium/vitamins or changing the location of their gecko room, etc... So certainly changing feeders would affect a lot of us (with the whole meal worm shortage and all). It sounds like there is more than just a "change" problem going on for some of us...but please keep in mind that even small changes can really have a big impact on collections...this is one thing I know from experience.

 

[LadyGecko]

In response to sschind's post. Almost all of our females who were producing follicles and then not laying were proven breeders, most of them common morphs that have been around for a while and pairings that we made last year. I even lost one of my females who had been a great breeder in the past. She wasn't eggbound, she had always been a great eater then stopped eating her worms I just found her dead in her tub a couple of days later. Maybe it was just a weird random occurrence...I don't know. I also don't know how pairings that we made last year were so prolific and this year never produced a single egg. The babies that did hatch and were started on meal worms did not grow at the pace they had in previous years but now that they're all on crickets, they're thriving. It's all really weird...

In response to Charlton's post: We tried feeding supers for a while and only 3 Leos out of our entire collection would eat them so we gave up. So far *knock on wood* we haven't had any ill effects from crickets. Hopefully that luck will continue.

Wow-I don't think that I have one Leo that will not eagerly take supers

That's weird-you have some finicky Leos-lol!!

My easy availability with having a local bug breeder males it easy for me to get batches of 1000 of assorted sized supers for every sized Leo that I have

Again-since I am not dealing with any hatchlings-I don't have to worry about dealing with mealies and if I do get a small gecko-I feed small crickets until it gets up to size for supers

I have also chopped up super worms and the continued movement of the pieces attracted the babies and they ate them with no problem
I found mealies to be a nuisance about a year ago and just quit using them

Sandy

 

[Kristi23]

Most of mine won't eat supers or giant mealworms either, so it's not just Mel's.

 

[LadyGecko]

Most of mine won't eat supers or giant meal worms either, so it's not just Mel's.

That being the case-and I am sure that there are more people whose Leos do not eat supers- I consider myself to be very fortunate

 

[dprince]

I have many, many leos that won't eat supers. Not for lack of trying on my part..........I dreaded the move to crickets. LOL. Now, I'm onto crickets, and ALL of my geckos will take them.

As for the post about the genetics maybe being responsible.........it's food for thought, and thank you for the very well thought out post!! Unfortunately, like Mel, it's some proven breeders for me that have done nada this year (male and female), and the birth defects that have surfaced have been in nearly every project, so there is not seemingly a correlation between the two other than potentially their food source, supplementation, etc. I honestly think that as many breeders that have had funky seasons (that were feeding mostly mealworms purchased from a dealer)..........it's too big to be a coincidence. Thank GOODNESS for places like this where we can share our experiences!!! :main_thumbsup:

 

[SunnyStateReptiles]

Maybe its there way of revolting, saying they want mealworms back! i wants mealies to come back so much easier to feed!!!! Also 4 of my geckos wont eat supers !

 

[Paco]

Well how long of a period of time do you try to feed supers before you give up? And have you tried various sizes? I found some of my leos will only eat a certain size feeder. If it's too big they will not even bother, but put a much smaller feeder in there and they will eat 5 or 6. Something to consider as well. And my feeder size experience is coming from Silks which can get Huge 3-4 times the size of an Adult super, and I have several 60 Gram Leos that will eat Jumbo's but other 60 gramers will only eat med. or small. Sorry this is a bit off the topic at hand.

 

[SunnyStateReptiles]

Yeah 1 of them only eats 1 half inch (smallest) super a day. The other will eat a couple, and my two raptor females wont eat, but there fecal looks good, like all my other healthy ones, pretty weird. So am i hearing this correct? It is better to feed supers than mealies? Dont mean to hijack the thread just wonderin'. Thanks.

 

[JConley]

I talked with a herpetologist at Brookfield Zoo outside of Chicago and he told me its most likely the mealies. He said to take the worst geckos and have a vet take a blood sample.

He said anything that was in the mealies would show up in the geckos.

To him it sounded like pestacide.

That can be the only thing that links them.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Every year more and more people are getting into the breeding game and every year more and more combinations are being produced. It does not surprise me that in some circles depressed breeding results are being observed. Is it possible that many of these genetic combination are simply not meant to thrive..... Just that certain genetic crosses and combinations can produce lethal results and birth defects. Do we know exactly what changes in the genetic code produces a particular change in morphology. I dare say no.

I completely agree with most of what you said here! With shallow gene pools and unnatural genetic morph combinations, we may very well be creating weaker animals, and Mother Nature had a way of controlling populations like this.

However, my particular situation involved mostly 2nd and 3rd year breeders. Suprisingly enough, it's my 1st year breeders that are producing the most eggs, and the healthiest babies.

Myself and other breeders I've talked to over the years have experienced poor production rates when just about any change is made, whether it be changing brands of calcium/vitamins or changing the location of their gecko room, etc... So certainly changing feeders would affect a lot of us (with the whole meal worm shortage and all). It sounds like there is more than just a "change" problem going on for some of us...but please keep in mind that even small changes can really have a big impact on collections...this is one thing I know from experience.

I have experience with this as well, and you are absolutely correct, Paul! I switched to another brand of supplements several years ago and didn't get a single viable egg for almost 2 months until I went back to my original supplementation regime.

I have racked my brain trying to figure out what is 'different' this year that could be contributing to my problems, but I am using the same racks, tubs, bowls, substrate, hides, feeders/suppliers, supplements, incubators, and incubation methods I have always used. I am even using mostly the same breeders I have used for the past couple of seasons.

The ONLY correlation I can make is that something has changed with the mealworms, and since I stopped feeding mealies I have had a huge change for the better in the number of eggs, hatch rates, and robust babies. I took a good look at the exact date of my last mealworm shipment (nearly 3 months ago), and went through all my breeding/laying/hatching records, an every egg that was laid from about 2-3 weeks after I started feeding Supers and crickets has thrived. Not only that, but every baby that has hatched in the past 2-3 weeks has been perfect.

If my vet wasn't off recovering from back surgery, I would most surely obtain blood tests. I still have a few limp and lifeless mealworms left over... maybe I should check in to having a lab analyze them???

 

[papaK]

wow i am really sorry to hear that all of you have been having such problems this breeding season! i chose to sell/trade off my entire collection to friends a year ago and i was going to pick up a small group of tangs soon... almost makes me think twice! thank you to those stepping forward with information!