The WORST season in Golden Gate Geckos' history!

[nevinm]

ok ok everyone settle down!!! i know you have all been waiting for my 2 cents!! joking.... but any way, i didnt read this entire thread, (ive been busting my butt on a report) but i did read quite a bit of it. after a long discusion with someone special tonight, ive decided to let you guys know whats going on here in my world. this is also my worse season, all together i breed leos for about 7 years, and this is also my worse season ever. so far ive had over 120 eggs, and a little over 20 eggs just die on me. something had happened ive never seen. the only way i can describe it is they would grow a "slime" coat over the entire egg and with in 2 days it would completely collapse. ive also had females on there 3 year breeding and only giving me 3 fertile clutches, even though the've given 4-5 fertile clutches their first years. im now feeding my adults super worms and have been for the past 2 weeks, and my babies are being fed baby crickets. before i had spoke with anyone i had my own theory that it might be them mealies, but im not making any accusations. so yeah, thats whats been going on at moyer's monsters. im sorry to hear about evey one else going through the same thing, and im sure this year will probably go in the history books. GOOD LUCK FOR THE REST OF THE YEAR!!

 

[KelliH]

For those of you having problem getting the leos to eat superworms, if you have not tried offering them with feeding tongs you should. That's how I got all of mine eating them several years ago. I fed my adults strictly supers for several years and it was only a couple of years ago I switched them over to mealies.

 

[PacHerp]

I still have a few limp and lifeless mealworms left over... maybe I should check in to having a lab analyze them???

I'd say yeah.... I don't think it would hurt.

I can, if needed, get some mealies and other feeders from a local pet store... they are still getting a steady supply of all sorts of feeders from a 'big chain feeder breeder' ... this pet store has never been out of stock.

 

[fallen_angel]

We too haven't had the multitude of deformities as others have had; but we have had a few, along with many infertile eggs, some eggs going bad mid-term, etc. We've had a nice number of babies for our first year, as we didn't want to produce too many straight off the bat, but our hatchrate thus far has been 50%. Our one female that produced the most infertile eggs was also a three-year-old proven breeder, and the one female to produce the most fertile eggs (7/8) was a first-year breeder!

 

[GECKOFREAK]

For those of you having problem getting the leos to eat superworms, if you have not tried offering them with feeding tongs you should. That's how I got all of mine eating them several years ago. I fed my adults strictly supers for several years and it was only a couple of years ago I switched them over to mealies.

I have also found that alot of my leos will only eat supers if I use feeding tongs. I tried leaving them in a bowl, but the leos were not interested at all.

 

[SunnyStateReptiles]

Yeah i have a couple that wont eat out of the dish either, its starting to sound like im not a complete leo idiot

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

It took awhile for ALL my breeders to start feeding on Supers. With my girls, I started feeding them (like Kelli suggested) with tongs until they would eat from a bowl. I didn't want to starve the females, but it wasn't until they were good and hungry that they would eat supers from a bowl. Now, 95% of my adult geckos are on superworms. I have a few stubborn ones that will only eat crickets, and I have found that feeding the small superworms for the ones that expect mealies is working out very nicely.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK, I made an anonymous POLL:

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=24077

 

[SunnyStateReptiles]

So once the mealies are back do you recommend to switch back to mealies or to keep feeding them on supers? Thanks for any help

 

[bohannbj]

I have heard a little talk about water supply and I think that should be considered in addition to worm health. I know because of my fish tanks a lot of water companies shock thier water supply with ammonia (NH3) and that wreaks havoc on small animals. On another note I would say that you should seriously investigate whether or not these worms contain pesticides. If they are contaminated and have lead to a loss of monitary profits (obviously they have) then all of you affected may have a claim against them in the form of a Class Action Law Suit. I was looking at the individuals who post thier location and the ones with problems seem to be from TX to the west coast. Myself and others are in the southeast region and have not had any problems. I order from Armstrong's GA center and love them, so maybe that is something to consider. Good Luck with the rest of your seasons.
Brent Bohannon

 

[sschind]

Here's another thought. What are the superworm growers feeding their worms with. I know I keep my meal worms and superworms on the same thing (wheat bran) and its a bakers quality wheat bran (don't know if that makes a difference or not) I may be way off but it would seem to me that growers would keep both types of worms on the same thing or at least feed them the same thing. If so wouldn't it make sense that superworms would be affected as well. On the other hand, the fact that supers are not affected would seem to indicate that they are not raised on the same thing and I don't know what I am talking about.

For the record, I have 1 male and 7 females and I feed them supers and crickets and my hatch rate is below 50% So far I have hatched out 12 or 13 babies. I will admit though that there is a good chance I don't know what the heck I am doing. I stopped breeding LGs about 6 years ago and this is my first year back at it. My babies are getting mealworms and the occasional cricket. I have had two siblings hatch with the last 1/4" of their tails bent at 90 degrees and 1 baby has failed to thrive. It wouldn't put on weight and I had to finally put it down. All the others that have hatched are doing well.

As I said in my other post. I do believe that the mealworm shortage and the poor breeding season (for some) are related. I figured that was the case because I knew that some of you experiencing the problems were experiencing them with many of the same geckos that were strong producers in the past. My intentions are not to cast doubt on that theory but to perhaps add a few other things to think about.

 

[Gregg M]

Wow Marcia, that really sucks. Sorry you are dealing with this on such a large scale. I have never been a huge fan of a "staple diet" of anything, especially meal worms. It does seem like there could be an issue with the meal worms you have been using. Could it really be insecticides though?
Would that not kill the meal worms? Also, where are you getting mealworms with bedding? My mealworms come in boxes without any bedding at all.

Well in any case, I am glad you may have found the link to your issues. Just think, it can only get better from here...
Gregg

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Here's another thought. What are the superworm growers feeding their worms with.

Good point, and one I have been thinking about as well.

 

[LadyGecko]

I recieved this reply from my Bug Guy

He produces Meal Worms-Crickets-and Super Worms and sells locally-to pet stores and some individuals

"I haven't had any problems. The story I hear is that ONE major producer got some bad feed and has had major problems."

I was also thinking about the bedding being the same for both mealies and supers from the Feeder Insect producers that had major issues with the mealworms

I know that my guy uses the same bedding with both mealies and supers
He brings my worms in lots of bedding for me-per my request

Sandy

 

[bohannbj]

In the interest of gecko health, I think the "major supplier" should be identified. Print it as an informational post and I don't think its libel.

 

[paulnj]

go to most chain pet stores and pick up a mealworm container and read the name on it:main_lipsrsealed:

 

[acpart]

A couple of misc. thoughts:

a few posts have wondered whether mealworms and superworms are being fed the same stuff. Well, what are the **crickets** being fed? My mealies and crickets are on the same stuff.

As I posted before, I am having some of the problems we've been discussing, although all my adults are eating almost entirely crickets and I've been breeding my own mealworms without buying from an outside supplier for about 8 months. My babies are thriving on mealworms.

I will be emailing my reptile vet (as soon as I get his email) and referring him to this thread on the chance that he knows someone who would like to take this on as a research project. It could be a great grad school project and would help us as well.

Aliza

 

[Halley]

Let me ask this...

I usually buy from ***. They have continued to sell to me until just this month because I was an existing customer. The last few orders have come from ***. Now, I'm not sure where everyone else is getting their worms from, but somehow most all of the mealworm companies are having issues with the shortage or whatever it really is.

How are these companies mealworms connected? Is there a farm that breeds mealworms for these companies? Or do these companies breed their own worms but buy food from the same supplier?

*** Mealworms told us the issue had to do with food. They said bad food killed off and stunted the growth of the mealworms.

I believe that the majority gets their food from one major supplier; however I know some breed their own. But the shortage is also caused by the trickle effect. A major supplier is one that went down first as far as I know, then all the demand they took on, went to smaller suppliers then they also ran out, etc. etc.

Not for nothing and I did post very early on in the thread about some females having a sub-par year, but I am having a good season relative to what I have had in the last few,.............. however, I believe there was definitely something going on with the mealworms, because i have bred mealies before, and this year all the beetles i had (from mealies I bought) would not breed or reproduce, so I had to keep buying and buying and buying by the 10,000..... sounds like someone almost made it so that everyone would have to keep buying and couldn't breed their own mealies from stock purchased this year... call me a conspiracy theorist.. but I bet there are chemicals that would cause this in the pesticide realm. If I had to take a guess on what may have occurred, I would go so far as to say that someone (probably a major producer of mealworms) did something (chemical enhancement) to try and improve their business, but shot themselves in the foot by unknowingly making their beetles infertile in the process, and caused a massive mealworm shortage after they discovered that they were unable to reproduce mealworms themselves. That chemical probably also poisoned many animals that consumed these "treated" mealworms. Does anyone else find themselves thinking this is what really happened????? Just curious as I speculate on what might have been.

This could very possible be the case, such as the frontline theory present earlier.

why are the crickets price going up?

They are in higher demand because of the mealworm shortage.

First off, I'm sure someone will take this in a way that will offend them and honestly that is not how I am intending it. Second, it is entirely possible, even probable that the mealworm shortage and the plethora of non hatching eggs and deformed babies are related.

My comments are simply made to perhaps shed a bit more light on the subject and make you stop and think about a few other possibilities. I am no genetics expert and I don't play one on TV so everything I am about to say comes from a single genetics class in college about 15 years ago and from every day observances from being in the reptile hobby for 20 years. I am certain that there are people reading this that have far more experience in this field than I and I would certainly welcome and appreciate comments and evidence that either support my ideas or refute them. I am not providing any scientific evidence to back up what I am saying simply because I am not a scientist and I do not have any at hand. However, I do not believe that anything I am saying is beyond understanding by anyone who reads it here so Ii don't feel I need to provide any. Also, I am not presenting anything I am saying as scientific fact so I don't feel that what I am saying is diminished in any way by not having empirical evidence to back it up. Enough with the disclaimers and on with the show.

Every year more and more people are getting into the breeding game and every year more and more combinations are being produced. It does not surprise me that in some circles depressed breeding results are being observed. Is it possible that many of these genetic combination are simply not meant to thrive. I know one response will be that you have all bred these same animals in years past with nothing like the results you are getting this year. That may be true but what about the genetics of your new breeders. The new stock you are putting into production. The one new animal with that one new mutation that you can't wait to see combined with your other animals to see what will come out. How is that animal and the combinations it is providing affecting your stock

I am not talking about inbreeding. Just that certain genetic crosses and combinations can produce lethal results and birth defects. Do we know exactly what changes in the genetic code produces a particular change in morphology. I dare say no. If we don't know what is causing the changes how can we possibly know how a combination of these changes will effect anything. There are reasons why wild type animals are the way they are. Hundreds of thousands of years of evolution has made them that way and for a reason. Mutant combinations of genes have most certainly been produced in the past in these wild populations and to what result? They have not survived. We all know how albinism affects an animals ability to survive. They stick out like a sore thumb and are eaten thus their genes are not passed on. What about less conspicuous mutations however. Perhaps enigmas haven't developed in the wild populations because the combinations of genes has proven lethal in the egg.

In my opinion, the farther we go down the morph road the more common this will become. As we get into more and more genetic combinations that simply do not show up in nature I think we can expect even more of this. I won't say "things that nature never intended" because that sounds like I am preaching. Besides I do not believe that nature "intends" anything. It just provides a venue for things to happen and strange genetic mutations in general do not happen because for any number of reasons it is not beneficial to the species for them to happen.

Again, I want to restate that I don't think the mealworm factor is mere coincidence. I just think that lower fertility rates, and higher mortality rates can be expected the farther we stray from the genetic norm. Not to the level we are experiencing this year perhaps, and no my theory does nothing to address those who are not experiencing such things but still I think it is something to keep in mind.

I understand and respect this opinion fully. And although a slim possibility, it is quite improbable for this to happen to so many breeders, all in one year, all at once.

I have heard a little talk about water supply and I think that should be considered in addition to worm health. I know because of my fish tanks a lot of water companies shock their water supply with ammonia (NH3) and that wreaks havoc on small animals. On another note I would say that you should seriously investigate whether or not these worms contain pesticides. If they are contaminated and have lead to a loss of monitary profits (obviously they have) then all of you affected may have a claim against them in the form of a Class Action Law Suit. I was looking at the individuals who post thier location and the ones with problems seem to be from TX to the west coast. Myself and others are in the southeast region and have not had any problems. I order from Armstrong's GA center and love them, so maybe that is something to consider. Good Luck with the rest of your seasons.
Brent Bohannon

I also think that that would be something to look at! If we are going to blame this problem on some people, we better know what we are talking about before, we make a full allegation.

Here's another thought. What are the superworm growers feeding their worms with. I know I keep my meal worms and superworms on the same thing

That is a great point! I didn’t consider that. Maybe there is something different with their immune system, or perhaps even their digestive system, where the supers can break down different chemicals than mealworms? Or maybe they did something different with the mealworms because of the huge demand?

Also has anybody else had this problem? I have had A HUGE amount of eggs with SUPER thin shells, all the females have calcium bowls in the hide, and so what else could cause this problem? Is this normal, for a normal year?

 

[acpart]

It would be great to hear from some people outside the US, where the mealworm shortage is not a problem, to see how their breeding season is going.

Aliza

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

why are the crickets price going up?

The same reason gas prices are through the roof! Because the feeder suppliers have us by the 'you-know-whats', and we are willing to pay their prices because we NEED to feed our animals. It's a shame that some people are capitalizing on the losses of others.

In defense of some of the bug suppliers, they have lost literally millions of dollars in sales due to the shortage of mealworms. We aren't the only ones that use them as feeders... the bird and primate industry (AND fishing!) use mealworms as well. I know for a fact that two of the biggest bug breeders in the country have had to lay off people and cut back hours for their employees to recover the losses.

Most of the problem DOES lie with one huge mealworm breeder that supplies most of the other bug companies as well as all the chain pet stores. I don't want to mention any names (besides, it's against the TOS) unless we have 100% factual proof that what many of us are experiencing is a direct result of tainted mealworms.