would you breed a leo that has a slightly curled tail?

[Lady Hyena]

Beyond that- there are debates and questions about some issues, like what to do with those animals which are deformed. I, personally, am a proponent of an aggressive terminal culling policy- I think the responsible thing to do it so euthanize animals that are displaying deformities of an unknown origin- including all enigmas and including animals like your own where there's some question about the cause of the problem. Other people disagree- there isn't always a consensus, sometimes there is just a sort of ongoing debate.**

D: Siggy's one of the sweetest geckos idk how someone can consider putting him down for something he didnt cause. Its the breeders fault if they came out wrong why punish the animal? If you put down deformed ones then why not ones with terrible personalities? Once that bite constiantly? or are agressive to there own?(i think im linking gecko breeding with mammal breeding there)Why arent geckos bred for there personalities like other animals? Do that not play a roll in there out comes? I have a pet store gecko whos the meanest thing ever! he came from a terrible breeder....where as one i got from a private breeder is the sweetest gecko ever.

**debate when the participants respect one another. I would have a discussion with (for example) Robin about her choice to breed enigmas or a discussion with Garrick about his choice to not euthanize the slightly bent tail tip animal he sold you. It often turns into an argument or a fight if that respect isn't present.

I did email him asking if he could enlighten me a bit more on Siggys tail and if he'd think it was safe to breed. I know hes a mass producer but i spoke to him 2 weeks before i bought siggy and he Knew who sigs parents were(or what he group he came from) and was able to tell me almost everything on him. I think that his curl tail made him specail so he took notice to him over others. I asked him nicely and respectfully because i do respect him even tho he doesnt care for his animals as individuals but as a hole.

Maybe i should get some feed back form someone who supports Engimas too that way its not one sided^^ its great advice/info but also one sided.(atleast with the enigmas's) I personally dont think a enigmas showing signs should be breed nor should it be breed if its parents or grand parents showed signs. Its to risky and to much of a guessing game.

Could a tail curl really cause the geckos off spring to have curled spins? I find that kinda hard to believe...correct me if im wrong anyone:main_huh:

Sorry for the questions. I just never thought that Sigs tail would be a huge effect on the babies. I do not plan to breed his babies back to him I wanna breed him one season to get the snow bell engimas(maybe 2 if im not lucky) then not breed anymore. I have many homes already waiting for homes since i dont plan to charge more then shipping for any of the babies i hatch out(this includes from snow patternless, SHTCTB, SSBA, and Tremper snow) Most are pet homes, If the babies arent bred back to Sig what are the chance that they dont produce a curl tail ever? I know it sounds odd basing a decision i dont think lies in the generations down the line theres no way of saying that it was from Sigs curled tail that the baby came out C spinned. That could be from early hatchling(like siggy tail) and all the other reason mentioned. How can we be so sure that the one curled tail is the cause?

I know people are gonna decigree on that one but its how my logic works...thanks again! specailly for answering all my questions@.@ I think id fall into the innocent Nieve catagory just i know genetics and what not...not so much about curl tails

 

[M_surinamensis]

D: Siggy's one of the sweetest geckos idk how someone can consider putting him down for something he didnt cause. Its the breeders fault if they came out wrong why punish the animal?

It is not a punishment. It is not pleasant or enjoyable. It is simply necessary to ensure that an animal is never bred.

It is also not necessarily "the breeder's fault" since that implies culpability that simply isn't present when a random anomaly crops up. It would be the breeders fault if they set out to breed curly tailed geckos by finding curly tailed geckos and crossing them... but I feel pretty safe in saying that Garrick DeMeyer is one of the most upstanding, ethical and responsible guys in the reptile industry and that the curly tail on your animal was a fluke with an unknown cause- rather than a result of his pairing choices.

I asked him nicely and respectfully because i do respect him even tho he doesnt care for his animals as individuals but as a hole.

I think you're doing him a grave injustice by assuming he doesn't care for his geckos as individuals. Nobody becomes a producer of high-end, high-quality animals the way Garrick has without being very heavily invested in the individual animals every bit as deeply as he is his production numbers, business model and long term plans.

Could a tail curl really cause the geckos off spring to have curled spins? I find that kinda hard to believe...correct me if im wrong anyone:main_huh:

One of the users on this very board had a direct experience with that and posted about it. http://geckoforums.net/showpost.php?p=114613&postcount=29

The thing to keep in mind is that there are often multiple potential causes for a condition- and multiple conditions can be responsible for a single visible symptom. It can be difficult- sometimes outright impossible- to know exactly what is happening and why when you see something manifesting externally on an animal.

So something like an odd shape to a tail tip is probably not genetic... but it might be.

And it probably wouldn't be something that could be expressed with greater severity and result in deformities up the entire length of the spine... but it might be.

Given that there is any possibility whatsoever of negative ramifications, it becomes a question of risk management. Since extreme negatives are a possibility- however remote, then the appropriate way to manage the risk is to avoid it entirely by eliminating the risky factor.

 

[Gregg M]

Any animal with any type of defect should be culled as soon as the defect is spotted... Any defective geckos or snakes that hatch in my incubators will promptly be placed in one of the many varanid cages and will become a meal for the first monitor that spots them...

 

[Lady Hyena]

I think you're doing him a grave injustice by assuming he doesn't care for his geckos as individuals. Nobody becomes a producer of high-end, high-quality animals the way Garrick has without being very heavily invested in the individual animals every bit as deeply as he is his production numbers, business model and long term plans.

I didnt mean it like the way it sounded. I simply ment that he wasnt able to tell me much about single geckos but them as a whole(morph group) Not that he doesnt care for them. I guess i need to think about how im wording things more. No offence meant!

Given that there is any possibility whatsoever of negative ramifications, it becomes a question of risk management. Since extreme negatives are a possibility- however remote, then the appropriate way to manage the risk is to avoid it entirely by eliminating the risky factor.

I think i get it now. The risk out way the goods. Unless im prepared to house all the babies and test breed them all for mutlipule genereations that it isnt worth it in the long run.

That post is super useful! I really dont think I'll breed Sig, I dont think i could go threw the problem of putting any downD: But then the curiousity of knowing for sure if he's got genetic problems or had problems as a baby(ext) kinda interges me slightly...but the "might be" is tredding on deep waters...either way sig has a home here for good his curlly tail will be admired and oowwed for years to come! He eats just fine, poops just fine, everything just like the other geckos so I believe it's not genetics but from his premature hatching breeding him had dropped down to 5% if even that.

thank you very much for all your insight and information it helped alot

 

[T-ReXx]

The fact is, anyone who is considering breeding any animal should be prepared and capable of culling. You don't enjoy it, it doesn't make you an "evil animal murderer" it's just a reality of producing offspring. If you can't cull, you shouldn't breed. Period. Because regardless of whether a deformity is genetic, there ARE animals that will be born deformed and should be culled simply because of the quality of life they might have. Culling is a necessity for the good of the species.

 

[Lady Hyena]

Yes, i know its a necessary evil that occurs with everything. Only the strong survive after all. Just the THOUGHT of it is sad/unbearable.

 

[JordanAng420]

M_surinamensis, I really like the way you think! Excellent posts!

Excellent thread, too!

 

[Lady Hyena]

I thought of something else... if its genetics if he dropped his tail wouldnt his tail grow back still cruled? Could be wrong there.

 

[Tony C]

I thought of something else... if its genetics if he dropped his tail wouldnt his tail grow back still cruled? Could be wrong there.

It may or may not grow back curled, but the genes that caused it (assuming a genetic cause) don't go away.

 

[Lady Hyena]

Another thought hit me. Just because one we bred and had bad genetics(the deformities) Whos to say that it will happen with another? Different genetics different outcomes? Would that play a roll? Sorry im pressing it but my curiosity is peeked. Defects are bad yes? Why aren’t regenerated tails considered defects? Just because there not genetic? Right now I don’t think I’m considering breeding him anymore but I am going to do lots of research and talk with lots of people to find out all I can on curl tails.

 

[Tony C]

Another thought hit me. Just because one we bred and had bad genetics(the deformities) Whos to say that it will happen with another? Different genetics different outcomes? Would that play a roll?

It depends on the mode of inheritance for the gene that caused the deformity. If it is recessive you may not see any issues right away, but it is likely to pop back up later on because we tend to inbreed (aka line breed) for morphs.

Sorry im pressing it but my curiosity is peeked. Defects are bad yes? Why aren’t regenerated tails considered defects? Just because there not genetic?

Exactly, remember what Seamus said about injuries? A regenerated tail is a perfect example of an injury that does not interfere with quality of life or breeding, and it is not something that can be passed on because it is caused by physical trauma not genetics.

 

[Lady Hyena]

It depends on the mode of inheritance for the gene that caused the deformity. If it is recessive you may not see any issues right away, but it is likely to pop back up later on because we tend to inbreed (aka line breed) for morphs.

And since no one is breeding to see if its recessive no one knows, right? The more and more People are telling me the more I think its similar to the engimas spin. When it first came out didnt the signs show more often then not?(correct me if im wrong) My sig proves to be one of my healthiest(even has fat pockets the cow) so somewhere even tho its no being bred its safe isnt it? With all the line breeding isnt ther always the risks of getting a un desireable trait? Wouldnt that be similar? People shouldnt breed A emginas with signs but they still do ignoring future off spring carrying simply for the "morph enhancer"(NOT say everyone does this) so Is there really a difference if someon were to breed a club tail/curl tail to a none one. Wouldn't the odds be the same?(NOT saying im breeding Sig just trying to work out the holes in this=w=)

 

[T-ReXx]

And since no one is breeding to see if its recessive no one knows, right? The more and more People are telling me the more I think its similar to the engimas spin. When it first came out didnt the signs show more often then not?(correct me if im wrong) My sig proves to be one of my healthiest(even has fat pockets the cow) so somewhere even tho its no being bred its safe isnt it? With all the line breeding isnt ther always the risks of getting a un desireable trait? Wouldnt that be similar? People shouldnt breed A emginas with signs but they still do ignoring future off spring carrying simply for the "morph enhancer"(NOT say everyone does this) so Is there really a difference if someon were to breed a club tail/curl tail to a none one. Wouldn't the odds be the same?(NOT saying im breeding Sig just trying to work out the holes in this=w=)

The fact is the enigma gene is different. For one, the Enigma trait is Dominant, meaning that enigmas produce enigmas directly without any need to cross further generations to get the phenotype. Also, as far as I know there has been 0% success outcrossing enigmas to reduce the percentage of offspring that exhibit the "syndrome."(if anyone has recorded data showing that out crossing has in fact proven to reduce the possibility of issues in enigmas please speak up here, but to my knowledge and experience, it has not). And two; responsible enigma breeders don't produce offspring from animals that exhibit any signs of the syndrome. And if they do, they are doing so very carefully and either not marketing the offspring and/or making it very clear about the signs in the line. The odds are definately not the same. Enigmas who display signs of the syndrome are equally as likely to produce offspring who do the same as enigmas who do not openly show signs of it. The issue is linked with the genes that change the visual appearance. Seperating it out has so far proven to be unsucessful. Now, whether or not enigmas are a genetic variant that should be bred is a subject of much heated debate. It's a case of pros vs cons: Pros; the enigma gene does what it does and creates some visually spectacular animals. Cons: the same gene also can produce animals that spin so violently they are incapable of feeding themselves. Responsible enigma breeders understand these risks and will either a) cull animals that exhibit any signs of enigma issues or b) keep these animals for the entirety of their life span and not breed them. A gecko who is born with a tail deformity has nothing positive about it, it doesn't add to the animal's beauty and it can be linked to far worse deformities of the spinal column. So, in reality, there is nothing to gain from breeding such animals. The only case I can think of it being acceptable is when the animal in question is so rare or such a spectacular example of it's morph that the potential pros outweigh the potential cons. If there are other animals out there that are obtainable that are equal or better examples of the morph, why risk the genetics of future generations by breeding a subpar animal?

 

[Lady Hyena]

I know there different but figured it be a easier comparison then stub arms or no eye lids and such. I agree, good breeders do good for the engimas but there are bad breeders out there just looking to make a new morph(what i meant when i was using them for comparison) I think i get it all. Club tails in reprutable breeders eyes are trash and should be "culled". I guess i just dont see that because i dont see it as a negitive in his looks. He wont be bred, he'll be a pet only. It'd have been neat tho to have club tails and all that too.

I'd just like to add tho, that Sig's club tail was from early hatching not really genetics, none the less he wont be bred.

But then another thought. We have all these other animals, Pugs, scottish holds, pekenises(dogs and cats) that have probelms even being top notch. Why would breeders purposely breed them to have such problems? When first starting out they no doubt had many many "culled" animals but over the years the breeds were perfected. Wouldn't it be the same as club tails/curl tails? not one of 2 generations but several.

 

[Gregg M]

And since no one is breeding to see if its recessive no one knows, right?

Why would anyone run the risk of creating more curled tail geckos??? It would be counter productive to test breed this... It is better to just cull the defect... By test breeding it you run a good chance of that defective gene getting out into the captive population....

The more and more People are telling me the more I think its similar to the engimas spin. When it first came out didnt the signs show more often then not?(correct me if im wrong)

Firstly, the enigma issues are not passed on from line breeding... The issues are part of the enigma trait... These issues are not present in non-enigma siblings at all... The issues are no more and no less present to this day... EVERY enigma produced will show some level of the issues...

My sig proves to be one of my healthiest(even has fat pockets the cow) so somewhere even tho its no being bred its safe isnt it?

First of all, "fat pockets" are not a sign of good health... It can be a sign of too much intake... For some reason, many people think fat equates to healthy and this is clearly a bad way to think... And what do you mean by safe???

With all the line breeding isnt ther always the risks of getting a un desireable trait? Wouldnt that be similar?

If an undesireble trait just pops up it is one thing... It will/should get culled within minutes of hatching... It is another thing to intentionally breed a reptile with a noticable defect... It is just not smart to do so...

People shouldnt breed A emginas with signs but they still do ignoring future off spring carrying simply for the "morph enhancer"(NOT say everyone does this) so Is there really a difference if someon were to breed a club tail/curl tail to a none one. Wouldn't the odds be the same?(NOT saying im breeding Sig just trying to work out the holes in this=w=)

Like I said, the issues with enimas is present in every single enigma produced... Some animals show it more than others and I am certain that every enigma will show a higher degree of this issue as they age/ovulate/breed, and so on... I do not breed enigmas because of this reason... The only thing I can see different is the fact when you get an enigma, you know what you are getting into and you can easily tell enigmas apart from other geckos and the issues are not passed down to normal non-enigmas... In the case of club or curled tailed geckos, the defect COULD be passed on to any gecko and if it recessive it could be hidden and just pop up when two hets are paired... Atleast with the enigmas, you can easily keep track of the defect and it will go no further than enigmas...

 

[Lady Hyena]

When people started breeding them what made them wanna keep the albinos? If they thought it was defective wouldnt they have just "culled" it off then? Dont all morphs, designs, looks start somewhere? I think im making it seem more like mammal(mainly dog) breeding. The Japanese Akita was bred centeries ago to have a curlly tail, wasnt it? It had to of popped out of somewhere didnt it? A random pup from another breed/hyrbid. What about the scottish hold(cat) it started from one cat, the cartalige in their ears is messed up but people still breed them for that look. Wouldnt that be the same?

By safe i meant he's not gonna start having internal problems or just randomly die. I know fat pockets are signs of health but i just wanted to point out he's eating enough to have them.

Like ive been saying I dont plan to breed him anymore I'm just curious...it sounds like people are getting angry about this.

 

[Taquiq]

When people started breeding them what made them wanna keep the albinos? If they thought it was defective wouldnt they have just "culled" it off then?

Morphs start out as a color variation. There was no sign that Albinos were a genetic defective gene and they are not a genetic defective gene. But tail curl is an obvious sign of a genetic defect.

 

[Lady Hyena]

Well I'm outta thoughts Its safe to say this forum is closed! Breeding Club tails/tail curls is unsafe and not logical. Sorry for the questions just wanted to make sure that all the bases were covered sicne the other fourm on it left so many holes! This will be a great refurrel Sorry if i offened anyone just thought we'd put a stop the thoughts of breeding them.:main_thumbsup: Hopefully this will show up when someone googles curled tails

 

[M_surinamensis]

Sorry for the questions

You shouldn't be. It is how you learn. Ask a question, get an answer, ask for clarification about anything that the answer might not have covered, get more answers.

The end result is a bunch of your questions solved and thread that has a lot of information for anyone that might be looking for it in the future. It was good for you. Good for anyone else who might be looking for similar information but wasn't participating today. Good for those of us who were involved by supplying answers- since it lets us know what kinds of things people are inclined to ask and identifies areas where our own answers might not cover all the information someone would want to know.

Never be sorry for asking questions or requesting clarification when something someone says is unclear.

 

[Lady Hyena]

It just seemed like some were getting frustrated/angry (like Gregg M) I just wanted to cover more bases so that the thread would be a better use for someone(since google, yahoo and all them were little help). This certinaly enlighten me more then enough on my Siggys little curled tail, and i silently thank Gerrick for not "cullng" him if thats how people really are. i honestly didnt know so many had to be "culled" over tiny fualts. Why not give them to homes if there small faults like that? Obviously Sig's still thriving and loving his home here and despite how cute his tail is and how much people are dissapointed not get a curly-Q tail gecko(what we call it) its better in the long run i suppose then to have to "cull"(why is it called that) a bunch of babies just coz of my error. I still believe its not genetics tho and trust gerricks word that it was from a premature hatching. It would have been cool to see some of his babies crossed with my tug snow engimas het bell but it must not be so. I still feel bad if i frustrated anyone in this again i was only trying to cover all the bases so someone doesnt think "oh well isnt it similar to this? It must be safe if i do it that way" alot of rookie breeders(me included!) have ALOT to learn on genetics, defects, goods and bads of both, morphs and characteristics. Thank you once again very insightful:main_thumbsup: