would you breed a leo that has a slightly curled tail?

[Tony C]

Did you bother to read the thread? Several good reasons why culling is necessary have been given...

 

[Lady Hyena]

yeah i did ^^ some a few times coz they were blocks of words. But why is all culling necessary? Sigs tail doesnt hurt him, hes not gonna be bred. I know people who have cresties who have slight jaw problems again living fine. I know it should be done if they cant sustain themselves on there own but isnt it a huge thing not to cull something that has a little defect that may prevent it from breeding but not from being a nice pet? I get that not everyones bright enough not to breed defected animals and that some defects are life threating and they should be culled right away. I suppose everyone will have there own veiws on culling a slightly defected animal just as they do with breeding the enigmas morph. Personally i believe if they can live on there own and are healthy then they should get a chance at life, Now to reproduce thats a different story(wont happen)

 

[Tony C]

You can't guarantee that gecko will not reproduce. You may leave the hobby or be forced to get rid of him, can you guarantee his next owner won't breed him? Can you guarantee he will never encounter a female under your care? It doesn't take long, maybe he climbs a divider, or you put him in another cage for just a minute while you're cleaning, maybe you are on vacation and your geckositter decides he looks lonely and needs a friend. Any number of accidents could happen, and many of them are out of your control. Culling is not enjoyable, but it is absolutely necessary for good genetic management. If I had hatched him he would have been beardie food as soon as I saw that tail.

Here is another thread on the topic of culling that is worth a read.

 

[T-ReXx]

Using dog breeding as a comparison; PLENTY of dog breeds have genetically linked defects just because people chose to continue to breed animals that had a certain look to them and ignored those defects. Responsible dog breeders spay or neuter animals that have these defects, something that is nigh impossible with leopard geckos. Even so, many breeds have issues that they are prone too that are based in their breed type: pugs and the like have breathing problems, golden retrievers, labs and boxers are prone to cancer and/or allergies/skin issues, dachshunds and beagles get back problems, etc.

 

[Lady Hyena]

I can garantee he will never leave me even if i fall ill he is one I would NEVER rehome him If i died i know any of my family members or friends(who are into herps) would take him. they know the bond i have with him(the one sided bond!) ;D i do see where your coming from so many possiblities it'll take one mistake but i think with cation and dilogent it wont happen. I never go out of town nor go out for more then a day so no pet sitters for me! they'd get eaten by the Chihuahus! Im considering moving him to a 20 long and keeping him away from the others just to be sure for SOME unknown reason someone touchs any of my geckos(manages to get the locks off) they dont see Sig as a easy target for breeding or fighting with the other males(if they dont know the sexes)

You say its not enjoyable and a necessary evil but did ya have to say ya'd feed him to a your beardieD; isnt that a bit harsh? Sure its survival of the fitist but does it mean the weak get fed to the other captive bred, fed well and right animals? Ill read the thread in the Pm since its not the early AM and i'd like rest

 

[Tony C]

Yes, I feed culls to my beardies. It provides a quick death, puts the body to good use instead of simply being discarded as trash, and provides the beardies with a chance to hunt and consume smaller lizards as they do in the wild. Culling is not enjoyable, but at least some good comes of it this way. You will never see one of those idiotic leo vs beardie/monitor/whatever videos from me...

 

[Lady Hyena]

Using dog breeding as a comparison; PLENTY of dog breeds have genetically linked defects just because people chose to continue to breed animals that had a certain look to them and ignored those defects. Responsible dog breeders spay or neuter animals that have these defects, something that is nigh impossible with leopard geckos. Even so, many breeds have issues that they are prone too that are based in their breed type: pugs and the like have breathing problems, golden retrievers, labs and boxers are prone to cancer and/or allergies/skin issues, dachshunds and beagles get back problems, etc.

thats the point i was trying to get across(sorta). Wouldnt you consider SHTCTB as pure bred and hypo crosses as mixed?(terrible comparason) Breeders are still breeding them some dont show signs till there older which means all the pups they had(good breeders normally have 3-4 litters from a female) that can be easily 10+ pups that have the probelm that were sold off the be bred without being fixed and by that time there could be 3-6 generations of them. I suppose now i sound like im on the side to Cull my sig, i am not. He's defective yes but again i strongly believe it wasnt from bad genetics but from a early hatching, correct me if im wrong but thats not genetic. If somewhere down the line he shows sickness I'll definatly bring him to the vet and find out if he has internal probelms or anything of that and then is the only time I'll put him down. Who knows he maybe a cold male which wont breed anyways. I know its a bad choice to keep him alive but at this point im far to attached. If i had known all i did on this i probably would have re-thought purchasing him. Obviously Gerrick didnt see him as a genetic defect or he probably would have culled him He didnt mention that sig should be a pet only(which he will be) Still alot of un answered question on his part which i hope to get a response from today.

 

[Lady Hyena]

Yes, I feed culls to my beardies. It provides a quick death, puts the body to good use instead of simply being discarded as trash, and provides the beardies with a chance to hunt and consume smaller lizards as they do in the wild. Culling is not enjoyable, but at least some good comes of it this way. You will never see one of those idiotic leo vs beardie/monitor/whatever videos from me...

yes that it is a good point but consider it from my veiw He's a pet one that i take out daily and spend time with, bonding. If you hadnt found out about the fualt and handled him and see how gentle/kind hearted he was could you seriously consider throwing him in to get eaten by one of your own*tho he is probably to big for that now* D: some of them videos are terrible!D: I dont know how beardies hunt so i was assuming it was simiar to how a tegu would hunt....that rat didnt die instantly...it took a good 5 minutes for the tegu to finally kill it before it ate.

 

[Tony C]

I understand your attachment, but as a breeder I feel that I have a responsibility to offer only healthy, properly developed animals. Any deformed or weak hatchlings are culled as soon as I notice the problem. The beardies provide a quick end for hatchling leos, they are snapped up and swallowed in an instant.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I can garantee he will never leave me even if i fall ill he is one I would NEVER rehome him If i died i know any of my family members or friends(who are into herps) would take him.

I have a will. Written by a lawyer, enforced by property law, all my assets and possessions including the animals all specifically listed in it* and going to people who share my position when it comes to... basically everything when it comes to keeping animals.

I don't buy or sell too many animals. Not in about a decade anyway. It is not something I do professionally, at least not in a production capacity and I like what I currently have and have used much of my available space to obtain exactly what I wanted. I breed very selectively when I want to produce something for a specific individual who likes the same species and on rarely when some friends who do run businesses request it of me- that and feeder colonies that never quite seem to be in perfect balance, although I am not too far off my target.

I still cull. Every single time it is appropriate to do so. I never want to cull, I love animals (although... perhaps not quite the same way other people do) and never want to be responsible for their death. There are practical concerns though, backed by a code of ethics that makes culling a mandatory action under some conditions. By owning animals, by choosing to breed them sometimes, I am shouldering a responsibility to make the absolute best decisions I possibly can for the good of my own animals and for the good of the entire captive population.

I cannot guarantee beyond all doubt that my animals will always be my animals. The life span of the species I keep can vary- the reptiles tend to range someplace between about ten and thirty five years though. Some of the amphibians are in the same range (some are a bit shorter), some of the fish can actually exceed that. I wouldn't even contemplate voluntarily owning chelonians or psittacines based on their life spans.

My ownership could change at any time. Any time. If I get hurt or sick or dead, there goes my control. If half my house burns down and I move to a new town, that new place might have regulations that prevent me from keeping my animals. I could go broke and have no choice but to rehome them because I can no longer afford them. I might get married** and my hypothetical wife might be allergic or phobic or just want to turn one of my animal rooms into something else. I might find a new interest and need to make room for myself. Someone might burglarize me and steal some of the animals.

Anything could happen. Absolutely anything. Most of it probably won't and I take as many precautions and plan for as many contingencies as I can, but I can't guarantee that I'll own all those animals for the remainder of their life.

So I have to cull. It is the only way to be sure.

You say its not enjoyable and a necessary evil but did ya have to say ya'd feed him to a your beardieD; isnt that a bit harsh? Sure its survival of the fitist but does it mean the weak get fed to the other captive bred, fed well and right animals?

Tony covered that perfectly. It is not survival of the fittest. It is making some use out of what would otherwise be a waste. An animal that is slated to be culled is dead regardless- may as well get some calories out of it whenever possible rather than simply throwing it in the trash.

Although I do sometimes get curious and perform a bit of dissection for my own edification if it is a particularly interesting or unusual condition that is prompting me to euthanize the animal- which can change exactly what is left and its appropriateness as a feeder for the predatory species I keep. Or, depending on exactly what I have done to the remaining tissue, sometimes it is just discarded. Some stains have antimicrobal properties that aren't great for the health of the beneficial gut fauna in the predator.


*especially important because a few of my animals require a permit with the state and cannot simply be handed over to just anyone- they have to go to another individual with an identical permit.

**if Robin reads this, she'll probably laugh at that.

 

[Lady Hyena]

I get it, i've never seen a gecko eaten*DONT PLAN TOO!* nor be put down, Ive seen dogs and cats...Something i cant forget. Maybe i have such a attachement because 2 of our 5 chihuahua are from puppy mills and if they were good breders they'd have killed them from the get go so maybe thats why? One has a piggy tail the other has twisted nuts neither are really LIFE threating. the ones tail works just fine just curls over his back like a Akitas and the other has long since been nuetered(even tho they didnt really work) @.@ i dont even understand how my mind works. I stressed that if for any reason i wasnt able to care for them that Sig and Sabi would be going to a friend who has herps and knows what he's doing(he has to with that stupid nile monitor!D he's agreed to take all mine in but i cant ask him to do that just siggy and sabi He knows sigs faults and couldnt breed him anyways since his Black hole leo is male. i have the utmost confident and faith that Sig wont be bred. If he were to fall ill or die or whatever maybe the problem then they'd go to his brother*another close friend* its rare to find anyone into herps this far north in MN so we all have close bonds and ties. tho both guys specailize in different reptiles they do have a leo or two to there collections so i know They'd be cared for.

Although I do sometimes get curious and perform a bit of dissection for my own edification if it is a particularly interesting or unusual condition that is prompting me to euthanize the animal- which can change exactly what is left and its appropriateness as a feeder for the predatory species I keep. Or, depending on exactly what I have done to the remaining tissue, sometimes it is just discarded. Some stains have antimicrobal properties that aren't great for the health of the beneficial gut fauna in the predator.

well THATS gonna make lovely dreams=_lll; This is where i start to back away. When i was in school and in science class i took a F just coz i couldnt disect the frogs, worms, crayfish, and bugs. Dissecting somethings body after it passes on just goes compeltely against my code of ethics.

 

[Gregg M]

It just seemed like some were getting frustrated/angry (like Gregg M)

Sorry, thats just the way I talk... I am from NYC... LOL

 

[T-ReXx]

thats the point i was trying to get across(sorta). Wouldnt you consider SHTCTB as pure bred and hypo crosses as mixed?(terrible comparason) Breeders are still breeding them some dont show signs till there older which means all the pups they had(good breeders normally have 3-4 litters from a female) that can be easily 10+ pups that have the probelm that were sold off the be bred without being fixed and by that time there could be 3-6 generations of them. I suppose now i sound like im on the side to Cull my sig, i am not. He's defective yes but again i strongly believe it wasnt from bad genetics but from a early hatching, correct me if im wrong but thats not genetic. If somewhere down the line he shows sickness I'll definatly bring him to the vet and find out if he has internal probelms or anything of that and then is the only time I'll put him down. Who knows he maybe a cold male which wont breed anyways. I know its a bad choice to keep him alive but at this point im far to attached. If i had known all i did on this i probably would have re-thought purchasing him. Obviously Gerrick didnt see him as a genetic defect or he probably would have culled him He didnt mention that sig should be a pet only(which he will be) Still alot of un answered question on his part which i hope to get a response from today.

I think you're getting the wrong idea here. No one is suggesting you euthanize your gecko because he has a tail kink/curl. What we are saying is that animals likE that shouldn't be bred because of the potential to pass on genetic disfigurements to offspring. And yes, a curled tail is a disfigurement. It is outside of the standard physiology of a leopard gecko and is considered undersireable not only because it affects the animals looks, but it can be linked to serious spinal deformities that can affect the quality of life of potential offspring. As a pet animal, sure he's fine. But as a breeder he is unsuitable.

I don't see a SHTCTB as a "purebred" any more than I consider a cross between two tangerine lines a mutt, dogs are completely different, they are domesticated animals that have had their genes changed for hundreds of years, reptiles are not domesticated and they are not the same as a mammal. And in dogs, QUALITY breeders are very certain of where their genetics are going: they all have puppy contracts and either REQUIRE animals in writing to be fixed by a certain age by their new owners or require registration of breeding animals with a national organization like the AKC. Any breeder who sells puppies without caring what happens to them beyond the sale date is unscrupulous. Leopard geckos are VERY difficult to spay or neuter, and controlling the genetics in that manner is very difficult.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I sort of sped read through some of the Enigma stuff so I won't touch on any of that but I can give a little experience with curled tails.

Years ago we got a beautiful pair of geckos from a breeder. One of their babies hatched with a curled tail. It seemed to get around ok and it started eating after it's first shed. We weren't sure what had caused it. We were using a Hovabator at the time and didn't know if it could have been caused by temperature fluctuations or not. We talked to several other breeders about it and they all knew that severe curly tail problems had been popping up out of that line (probably due to inbreeding) but no one was really talking about it because the geckos were really expensive at the time. That baby ended up dying at about 2-3 weeks old if I remember correctly. It wasn't properly digesting food and I suspect that the tail deformity may have only been the tip of the iceberg as far as internal problems. We just froze the rest of the eggs. The reason tail kinks and curls are so scrutinized is that there can be other genetic problems that go with them. The world isn't going to end because your gecko has a curled tail. Obviously you aren't going to breed him now so enjoy him as a pet and hopefully he stays as healthy as he can be and has a good life with you.

 

[Lady Hyena]

D: aw im sorry to hear that such a short time. Sig's been with me over 2 months and when i got him he had to be a minimum of 2 months. Still eats(minus when in shed, walks 100%, all that. I sure hope he has no problemsD: I spoke with Gerrick again and he can say for certain its not genetic that Sig shouldnt have any health problems and should be fine(should used lightly). I'll keep my fingres crossed he does. It'd be devistating after all this that he dies.

 

[roger]

The only way to find out whether such a defect is genetic would be to breed and find out. But personally, I don't feel it's something that should be done unless you are willing to cull any potentially deformed hatchlings. In general, only animals that have no genetically known defects shoul


sorry deleted

 

[roger]

A thought hit me tho. Why wouldnt the engimas spin be considered breeding worthy if people are producing spinners and head tilters and still breeding them? Isnt that genetic?
i dont mean to sound mm pushy? rude? but isnt it similar to a curled tail? Just you know its genetics? People still breed engimas with signs of the spin and there off spring show signs and there off spring do. Sure its not every time but isnt it the same?

I couldnt agree with your more.There are ppl on this site who tell other ppl not too test breed a leo for different defects like a curled tail but they have no problem breeding enigmas who are full of defects..I cannot figure that out for the life of me?????

 

[roger]

Any animal with any type of defect should be culled as soon as the defect is spotted... Any defective geckos or snakes that hatch in my incubators will promptly be placed in one of the many varanid cages and will become a meal for the first monitor that spots them...

So u believe in culling all enigmas who show negative traits????

 

[Lady Hyena]

I couldnt agree with your more.There are ppl on this site who tell other ppl not too test breed a leo for different defects like a curled tail but they have no problem breeding enigmas who are full of defects..I cannot figure that out for the life of me?????

Dont get me wrong i do like the enigmas's(my favorite morph is the snow enigmas) But id never breed my engimas. just the thought that the hatchlings can be so problemed that they spin right out of the egg. And people still keep some of the spinners for breeding becuase of the amazing colors! Most wont but greeder boogers do. The only conclusion i can come to is coz the enigmas's are known as the "morph enhancers" i guess color and variation is worth the risks of the lives of them..... great morphs but i think only expercienced breeders show breed them. And to answer your bit on siggy and test breeding hes gonna be a pet only i dont think that finding out if its genetics or not is worth all the lives that could have to be culled. I can prevent that easily;D

 

[Taquiq]

Dont get me wrong i do like the enigmas's(my favorite morph is the snow enigmas) But id never breed my engimas. just the thought that the hatchlings can be so problemed that they spin right out of the egg. And people still keep some of the spinners for breeding becuase of the amazing colors! Most wont but greeder boogers do. The only conclusion i can come to is coz the enigmas's are known as the "morph enhancers" i guess color and variation is worth the risks of the lives of them..... great morphs but i think only expercienced breeders show breed them. And to answer your bit on siggy and test breeding hes gonna be a pet only i dont think that finding out if its genetics or not is worth all the lives that could have to be culled. I can prevent that easily;D

Most Enigmas live fine with the syndrome. Rarely an Enigmas syndrome will effect it's health. The thing with curled tails is that it keeps getting worse every year of breeding. It has been shown that Enigmas can produce Enigmas with less of the syndrome. Why should only experience breeders breed them?