N
A TANGELO.....REDO!
- Thread starter eric
- Start date
So unless, a tangerine+albino breeding yields something like in the pictures in this thread, the rest would be tangerine albino instead of tangelo?
Also, I was browsing and found this:
http://www.jmgreptile.com/tremperalbinos.html
These thing look so awesome to some degree that I could not comment any further due to excessive drooling.
Also, I was browsing and found this:
http://www.jmgreptile.com/tremperalbinos.html
These thing look so awesome to some degree that I could not comment any further due to excessive drooling.
Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
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Only the Tangelo's "creator" knows what they really are (hopefully)... and no one else can call theirs a Tangelo.
L
Lacedolphin
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Well I didn't understand half of this thread but I love the pictures. I'm completely in love with Luther!! If I was to get another gecko, I would love to have one like him!!
Very well said Marcia.:main_thumbsup:
Here is my experience pictures will be coming.
2005 I bought a pair of Tangelos from Kelli the male is a giant, with that pair I also purchased 3 SHCT het albino.
The only female that produced tangelos was the female tangelos, from the other three we produced some nice sunglows and SHCT het albino. I kept all the tagelos back.
2006 I bred tangelo to tangelo and got only tangelos, I also bred tangelo to
F1 from the tangelo x SHCT and got tangelos, sunglows and SHCT. I noticed that tangelos from this group had almost solid body color whereas the tangelo x tangelo maintained the white or purple spots on their backs.
2007 I bred my original giant tangelo to a group of female blizzards het albino which gave me albinos het blizzard and "tang" as well normal triple hets.
I bred my tremper patternless male to a group of female tangelos and got all normal looking tremper albinos, het patty and "tang."
2008 I bred a male albino het blizzard and "tang" to a group of female albino het blizzard and "tang." We also bred a male albino het blizzard and "tang" to a group of normal females het albino, blizzard, and "tang."
We hatched out non albino tangerines, normals, albinos, tangelos, blizzards and blazing blizzards. Among the blizzards and blazing blizzards are a couple that have much more body color than any of the banana blizzards I have seen as well as having yellow on their heads that goes all the way to their nose.
We also bred a male albino het patty het "tang" to a group of females albinos het patty and "tang. This group produced very few offspring many of them are still pretty young and developing color, the largest of the offspring is a male albino patty with a bunch of orange moving up his tail.
We bred a male "lavender" albino mack snow to a group of female tangelos and produced albino and albino mack snows. None of these offspring express any of the "tang" coloration of the tangelo or the color of F1 snowglows.
We also bred a tangelo to a group of holdback females from 2006 that had no pattern all offspring were again tangelos since they are still maturing I don't know if any will maintain the white or purple spots.
There is more work to be done but that is what we have so far.
Nick
http://www.eereptiles.com
2005 I bought a pair of Tangelos from Kelli the male is a giant, with that pair I also purchased 3 SHCT het albino.
The only female that produced tangelos was the female tangelos, from the other three we produced some nice sunglows and SHCT het albino. I kept all the tagelos back.
2006 I bred tangelo to tangelo and got only tangelos, I also bred tangelo to
F1 from the tangelo x SHCT and got tangelos, sunglows and SHCT. I noticed that tangelos from this group had almost solid body color whereas the tangelo x tangelo maintained the white or purple spots on their backs.
2007 I bred my original giant tangelo to a group of female blizzards het albino which gave me albinos het blizzard and "tang" as well normal triple hets.
I bred my tremper patternless male to a group of female tangelos and got all normal looking tremper albinos, het patty and "tang."
2008 I bred a male albino het blizzard and "tang" to a group of female albino het blizzard and "tang." We also bred a male albino het blizzard and "tang" to a group of normal females het albino, blizzard, and "tang."
We hatched out non albino tangerines, normals, albinos, tangelos, blizzards and blazing blizzards. Among the blizzards and blazing blizzards are a couple that have much more body color than any of the banana blizzards I have seen as well as having yellow on their heads that goes all the way to their nose.
We also bred a male albino het patty het "tang" to a group of females albinos het patty and "tang. This group produced very few offspring many of them are still pretty young and developing color, the largest of the offspring is a male albino patty with a bunch of orange moving up his tail.
We bred a male "lavender" albino mack snow to a group of female tangelos and produced albino and albino mack snows. None of these offspring express any of the "tang" coloration of the tangelo or the color of F1 snowglows.
We also bred a tangelo to a group of holdback females from 2006 that had no pattern all offspring were again tangelos since they are still maturing I don't know if any will maintain the white or purple spots.
There is more work to be done but that is what we have so far.
Nick
http://www.eereptiles.com
Gregg M
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Ok Nick... I am going to be nice and to the point... You are not seeing anything but a polygenic trait at work... The recessive morphs you are mixing in does not prove your tangerine gene is recessive... All it is showing is that a polygenic trait like tangerine can be incorperated... This is not ground breaking work and has been done for years... Long before you started your tangelo project... Ask 420geckos about his tangerine blizzards...
You have a male patty albino with orange on the tail??? Many breeders do... Infact I picked up a pair of LV patternless from SF geckos about 5 or 6 years ago... They had like 40% orange tails... I am sure Marcia can show you quite a few patternless albinos with carrot tails too...
And honestly Nick, the tangelos you have on your site are VERY NICE, but are indistinguishable from sunglows/hybinos...
Tangerine coloration = polygenic or linebred trait....
You have a male patty albino with orange on the tail??? Many breeders do... Infact I picked up a pair of LV patternless from SF geckos about 5 or 6 years ago... They had like 40% orange tails... I am sure Marcia can show you quite a few patternless albinos with carrot tails too...
And honestly Nick, the tangelos you have on your site are VERY NICE, but are indistinguishable from sunglows/hybinos...
Tangerine coloration = polygenic or linebred trait....
Im not getting into the debate on what is up with the tangelos, but i can tell you that nicks tangelos/sunglow animals are far from the average sunglows you see. I have a bunch here right now, and also the "het" animals, and they are some of the nicest sunglows i have set eyes on. SOrry nick but you pics (as are mine) are not representative of the animal, i think they are better then the pic.
But i will ask, has anyone asked "the breeder from texas" his opinion on the matter?? He is no a unapproachable person and actually quite nice to hold a convo with. Like him or not he is the creator of the "morph" and will have the most info for us.
Retribution Reptiles
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Nick i'm sooo happy you chimmed in, actually reading your findings i didn't see any proof that the tangerine is a recessive trait. I see that it has yielded some great off spring but it didn't react like a genetic mutation would. A tangelo is a SHTCT Tablino just RT's version. He can claim all he wants but in the end he's just fooling himself.
Don't get me wrong but sure he pioneered a great deal back in the 70-80 and even bringing in the albino in the 90's i do believe i'm right on the decades (doing it from memory) but i think that Green/Orange/Blue geckos need to have many more years of line breeding and that's all he is doing.
Don't get me wrong but sure he pioneered a great deal back in the 70-80 and even bringing in the albino in the 90's i do believe i'm right on the decades (doing it from memory) but i think that Green/Orange/Blue geckos need to have many more years of line breeding and that's all he is doing.
Gregg M
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Pat, they are sunglows... They are very nice ones as I have stated... Still they are indistinguishable from really nice ones I have had and seen... I have sunglows that are way better than average as well but will never claim to have found a hidden recessive tangerine gene because of it... Especially with the findings he posted... There is just nothing there to suggest that there is a recessive tangerine gene...
The more generations you breed a polygenic trait, the chances of making superior looking animals is almost 100%... This is something we all know as breeders... I mean, look at your beautiful tangs you posted Pat... Clearly the work of line breeding a polygenic trait, not a recessive trait...
Seriously, my biggest problem with this is that Nick is calling animals from a tangelo/sunglow/hybino project "het for tangerine" with nothing more than his findings... To me and anyone else who has even a slight grip on leopard gecko genetics can see from his posted findings there is no evidence of the tangerine color being or even acting recessive...
I appologize in advance if anyone get offended...
The more generations you breed a polygenic trait, the chances of making superior looking animals is almost 100%... This is something we all know as breeders... I mean, look at your beautiful tangs you posted Pat... Clearly the work of line breeding a polygenic trait, not a recessive trait...
Seriously, my biggest problem with this is that Nick is calling animals from a tangelo/sunglow/hybino project "het for tangerine" with nothing more than his findings... To me and anyone else who has even a slight grip on leopard gecko genetics can see from his posted findings there is no evidence of the tangerine color being or even acting recessive...
I appologize in advance if anyone get offended...
I agree, I do not understand how tang can be recessive. I have been taught and see first hand the tang gene as being linebred/polygenic. But if someone has another theory i will listen and try to understand, but need evidence that the theory is correct before i jump on the band wagon (sorry nick).
Retribution Reptiles
Stripe King
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well from the research that i have done in looking up more websites then i would have liked to look at trying to find as much info as i could. Nothing is stating other then on the texas breeders site stating its a genetic color mutation. which i mean a high yellow the would be considered a genetic color mutation in which then we would have to reassess what is line bred compared to dom and recessive.
Gregg M
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Ryan, genetics are not always cut and dry... In the case of leos however, it is pretty cut and dry... Generations of breeding have proven these morphs to be what they are stated to be... Honestly I do not think the orange and yellow colors on our leos are mutations... The tangerines and yellows found in leos today are all natural color variation from different localities/subspecies... They were just improved upon and intergraded into other "morphs"... Clearly the results of polygenic traits...
Retribution Reptiles
Stripe King
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I agree with you Gregg. That's where i stated finding a certain pattern then when bred back together it produced a brighter orange coloration. I see the Tangelo as a Sunglow/Hybino just out of someone elses stock of geckos.
I view it the same way as other people naming their own Tangerine lines. Tangs are pretty much all created equal some exhibit a brighter or deeper shade that the particular breeder is looking for. Then they name that line after generations and boom we have 6 different lines of Tangs.
I hope i didn't offend anyone but it's just my opinion you can either agree or disagree or help me improve upon my opinion. i would like to see the latter of the 3.
I view it the same way as other people naming their own Tangerine lines. Tangs are pretty much all created equal some exhibit a brighter or deeper shade that the particular breeder is looking for. Then they name that line after generations and boom we have 6 different lines of Tangs.
I hope i didn't offend anyone but it's just my opinion you can either agree or disagree or help me improve upon my opinion. i would like to see the latter of the 3.
guys and gals
Ron has had this line for along time. prob before most of you started breeding leos. he just never put a name on it.
I’m going to take you back in time about 5 years when there was no such thing as a sunglow(super hypo X tang x Carrot tail X albino) when all we had and were working on was (tang X albinos)
this is the A&M website in 03 http://web.archive.org/web/20040406100337/www.amgecko.com/breeders.html
as you can see by the breeders there are geckos that look like the Tangelo. these geckos did NOT have the hypo gean in them. it was before the hypo gean was put in to make all the sunglow SHTCT baldy hybino ect ect.......
it was the goal then by selectively breeding and NOT using the hypo gean to make a solid tang gecko. BY LINE BREEDING the bands together not by using the hypo to make the bands just go away. through line breeding the project did get almost to perfect. as it got there the crosses with the actual hypo gean were released and made it easier to make a bandless tang. dew to this the selectively bred tangs with out the hypo gean basically went out the window. because with the hypo gean it was solid every time.
what ron is selling is this same line and putting a name on it.
the geckos that A&M sold back in 03. where do you think the breeders came from? you guessed it Mr. Tremper. Alberto just tried to refine it, Then like most "classic" projects. it was stopped and the geckos bloodlines lost. for the more popular hypo lines.
just thought I would say that little part. the Tangelo is not a by product of the Raptor. it was actually long before the Raptor it might have the raptor geans in there now. But the "tangelo" is actually a "classic" morph
Luther from what I have heard was from JMG originally when jmg was just starting out. jmg bought that line from Mr. Tremper. so actually if you do a DNA test I bet Luther is actually a "Tangelo" before there was the "tangelo"
almost all lines of every thing in the US can be traced Back to Mr. Tremper in some way. I’m not saying that what he says about genetics is right. but guys with out him we wouldn't have morphs.
So to me, naming a line that he has worked on for longer then most of us have been doing leos. he has that right.
as for calling it a genetic trait it is. is it a co dom or a recessive. no its a line bred tang albino with out the hypo gean. that simple.:main_thumbsup:
Ron has had this line for along time. prob before most of you started breeding leos. he just never put a name on it.
I’m going to take you back in time about 5 years when there was no such thing as a sunglow(super hypo X tang x Carrot tail X albino) when all we had and were working on was (tang X albinos)
this is the A&M website in 03 http://web.archive.org/web/20040406100337/www.amgecko.com/breeders.html
as you can see by the breeders there are geckos that look like the Tangelo. these geckos did NOT have the hypo gean in them. it was before the hypo gean was put in to make all the sunglow SHTCT baldy hybino ect ect.......
it was the goal then by selectively breeding and NOT using the hypo gean to make a solid tang gecko. BY LINE BREEDING the bands together not by using the hypo to make the bands just go away. through line breeding the project did get almost to perfect. as it got there the crosses with the actual hypo gean were released and made it easier to make a bandless tang. dew to this the selectively bred tangs with out the hypo gean basically went out the window. because with the hypo gean it was solid every time.
what ron is selling is this same line and putting a name on it.
the geckos that A&M sold back in 03. where do you think the breeders came from? you guessed it Mr. Tremper. Alberto just tried to refine it, Then like most "classic" projects. it was stopped and the geckos bloodlines lost. for the more popular hypo lines.
just thought I would say that little part. the Tangelo is not a by product of the Raptor. it was actually long before the Raptor it might have the raptor geans in there now. But the "tangelo" is actually a "classic" morph
please if this is wrong please tell me Marcia
Luther from what I have heard was from JMG originally when jmg was just starting out. jmg bought that line from Mr. Tremper. so actually if you do a DNA test I bet Luther is actually a "Tangelo" before there was the "tangelo"
almost all lines of every thing in the US can be traced Back to Mr. Tremper in some way. I’m not saying that what he says about genetics is right. but guys with out him we wouldn't have morphs.
So to me, naming a line that he has worked on for longer then most of us have been doing leos. he has that right.
as for calling it a genetic trait it is. is it a co dom or a recessive. no its a line bred tang albino with out the hypo gean. that simple.:main_thumbsup:
Golden Gate Geckos
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You are correct, Matt! Back then they were called Hybinos. Whoot! I have a Tangelo!!!
Correct again, Matt! Polygenic/line-bred traits ARE genetic, but they are NOT recessive.
hahah and i bet you didnt pay "tangelo" prices too hahahahh
isn't leopard gecko market history fun kids hahahahah jk :main_thumbsup:
so much stuff over the years that most of the "new' people dont know right Marcia
I am "new" but i learned my history. Have a Teacher that lived it.
Franks_Geckos
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My original Tangerine Tremper Male “Woody” (who I still have) was from Drago X (one of) The Three Ladies (according to my old emails from Alberto) from that 2003 A&M era. I think he was a May 2004 baby if I am not mistaken. He is definitely a cool part of my collection and as Matt indicated, Tangelo wasn’t even a coined Morph name back then and I still think the striking visual appeal of some of these geckos with the white bands (especially the jungle varieties) is impressive.
H
hunter66
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SaSobek, thank you for the history lesson.
I understand what you are saying but I still have a couple questions.
If the tangerine color is either polygenic or line-bred or both than why would a tangelo bred to a normal produce all normals? From everything I have read the genes in question would still result in producing non "normal" offspring. The other question would be if they are line-bred or polygenic how could two normal offspring from the above pair produce tangelos? Isn't that kind of textbook expression of recessives?
I understand what you are saying but I still have a couple questions.
If the tangerine color is either polygenic or line-bred or both than why would a tangelo bred to a normal produce all normals? From everything I have read the genes in question would still result in producing non "normal" offspring. The other question would be if they are line-bred or polygenic how could two normal offspring from the above pair produce tangelos? Isn't that kind of textbook expression of recessives?
Franks_Geckos
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Guess I have a Tangelo too........ WHOOT! LOL
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