crypto arguments and comments moved from a different thread...

[Golden Gate Geckos]

In the wild, you will be hard pressed to find a reptile that does not have or carry crypto... These parasites and other parasites are a natural part of life as a reptile... The ONLY thing that makes any parasite a danger is improper husbandry which causes immune systems to fail due to stresses of the reptile not getting what they need... This could be from not being heated properly, not getting the proper food, and/or not getting the proper supplements and immune boosting vits and minerals... It boils down to husbandry, not the parasite...

Greg, I'm afraid that you are misinformed. (Perhaps you read the "Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos" and took it as gospel?) Not all reptiles carry cryptosporidum. They do all carry some level of coccidia, but NOT crypto. This is a totally false notion.

You are correct that improper husbandry and stress can cause a reptile's immune system to become compromised, and cause otherwise sub-clinical levels of parasites to begin multiplying to levels that cause full-blown infection in reptiles. It is fortunate that we have anti-parasitic medication that can treat and cure most of these infections when caught early enough. But, currently there is NO CURE for cryptosporidum infection in leopard geckos.

 

[dprince]

So, there are people living full healthy lives with HIV and there are scores of reptile living full healthy lives in the wild and in captivity with crypto... There is no 100% mortality rate in either..

Marcia already answered your "facts" about crypto.........as for HIV/AID, it IS 100% fatal. Though treatment and healthy living *may* help prolong lives, there is no cure.

"Effective treatment requires that those living with HIV/AIDS work with their healthcare provider to make treatment decisions to help them maintain their health and immune system. Maintaining a healthy immune system through an antiretroviral drug regimen, treatment adherence, and a healthy diet and lifestyle may help individuals resist opportunistic infections and other health complications that often occur in individuals with HIV/AIDS. Avoiding substance use and treating substance abuse and mental health issues are also important factors for long-term treatment and care of individuals living with HIV/AIDS." (taken from http://www.aids.gov/treatment/overview/index.html)

 

[dprince]

Never read that book actually... And you should know by now, I take nothing as gospel... If you look at field studies of most reptiles, CRYPTO is found in the majority of wild reptiles along with other coccidia... It is not 100% but the % is high enough... The thing is, crypto is not fatal in wild population... It only becomes fatal when the stresses of not being cared for properly come into play... It is not a false notion... There are tons of field studies on crypto...

Gregg, if ALL lizards carried crypto, then how on earth would crypto spread to an entire collection, if it was inherent in most geckos? Since each gecko has it's own immune system, it would be pretty weird timing for them all to have failing immune systems at once, or within a short period of time from each other.......:main_huh:

 

[Gregg M]

Gregg, if ALL lizards carried crypto, then how on earth would crypto spread to an entire collection, if it was inherent in most geckos? Since each gecko has it's own immune system, it would be pretty weird timing for them all to have failing immune systems at once, or within a short period of time from each other.......:main_huh:

I never said "ALL" carried... It is however, a high %... Do you think for one second that any huge breeder never had some animals die of crypto??? You are kidding yourself if you do... No ones entire collection has been taken out due to crypto... Give me one example... The best breeders you know have animals carrying crypto... Some die from it, some do not... Some show signs, some never will... A leopard gecko can be a-symptomatic for its entire life and still carry it...

If your animals are cared for properly the chances of them loading up with the parasite to the point it kills them is very low... Once the immune system is weakend, the parasites have a chance to rise in number... The thing is, an animal needs to be in real bad shape before the a parasite can take over... Thats why the majority of animals that have been found with crypto are store bought or imports that have not had good husbandry in a long time...

Do you have every animal tested for crypto when it comes to you??? I doubt it... So if you got a gecko with crypto that never shows signs of having it, you would never know...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Do you think for one second that any huge breeder never had some animals die of crypto??? You are kidding yourself if you do... No ones entire collection has been taken out due to crypto... Give me one example... The best breeders you know have animals carrying crypto... Some die from it, some do not... Some show signs, some never will... A leopard gecko can be a-symptomatic for its entire life and still carry it...

I may not be a 'huge' breeder, but I have NEVER had crypto in any of my geckos. I've had countless necropsies performed over the past 12-13 years, an never ONCE did the pathology show any sign of cryptosporidiosis in the GI system of any of those geckos... and don't think for one minute that I didn't have that checked. I have also known of two breeders that lost their ENTIRE collection to crypto. One was a guy named Tom in Oregon, who was a well-known breeder back in the late 90's and early 00's. The other breeder is Kelli Hammack. (She gave me permission to post this information).

Gregg, I would like to you prove what you are claiming... other than what RT claims.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

crypto arguments and comments from a different thread...

I have moved the posts from this thread so we can contunue our debate and discussion about crypto in leopard geckos:

http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=31526

 

[Gregg M]

I may not be a 'huge' breeder, but I have NEVER had crypto in any of my geckos. I've had countless necropsies performed over the past 12-13 years, an never ONCE did the pathology show any sign of cryptosporidiosis in the GI system of any of those geckos... and don't think for one minute that I didn't have that checked. I have also known of two breeders that lost their ENTIRE collection to crypto. One was a guy named Tom in Oregon, who was a well-known breeder back in the late 90's and early 00's. The other breeder is Kelli Hammack. (She gave me permission to post this information).

Gregg, I would like to you prove what you are claiming... other than what RT claims.

My findings have nothing to do with what Ron says... In any case, do you think Ron pulled his info from his rear??? I doubt it... Ron has been doing this longer and way more successfully than anyone you have ever met in your life... He does not do just leopard geckos you know...

Ok, you listed a guy named Tom and Kelli Hammack... Only one of those people I know and respect, obviously its Kelli... Those are 2 people out of how many large scale breeders, keepers, and importers??? Remember, all it takes is one infected animal to spread crypto... If it was that deadly, we would not have the amount of animals we do in captivity..

You say you have had countless necropsies done... I am sure the amount of necropsies you have had done is quite countable number 1... Number 2 you can not tell me that every animal that you had die was tested for crypto... Like I said, if the animals are properly cared for the animals own immune system will either fight off the parasite or keep its numbers down so low that it will be just about unditectable and will not affect the animal...

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

you can not tell me that every animal that you had die was tested for crypto...

Well, I am telling you that every necropsy I have ever had performed has been done at IDEXX Labs, except for a couple at UC Davis, and I specifically requested detailed pathology on the intestinal tract of every one of those geckos. Not once was cryptosporidium observed in any of them.

Ok, you listed a guy named Tom and Kelli Hammack... Only one of those people I know and respect, obviously its Kelli... Those are 2 people out of how many large scale breeders, keepers, and importers???

I don't know of any other breeders that have the honesty and intergrity to even admit they have had crypto! In the book "The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos", the author plainly states that he believes ALL leopard geckos have crypto. IMO, this is admitting that he has crypto in every single one of his animals... but obviously has not lost his entire colony to the disease. Yet.

 

[dprince]

I never said "ALL" carried... It is however, a high %... Do you think for one second that any huge breeder never had some animals die of crypto??? You are kidding yourself if you do... No ones entire collection has been taken out due to crypto... Give me one example... The best breeders you know have animals carrying crypto... Some die from it, some do not... Some show signs, some never will... A leopard gecko can be a-symptomatic for its entire life and still carry it...

If your animals are cared for properly the chances of them loading up with the parasite to the point it kills them is very low... Once the immune system is weakend, the parasites have a chance to rise in number... The thing is, an animal needs to be in real bad shape before the a parasite can take over... Thats why the majority of animals that have been found with crypto are store bought or imports that have not had good husbandry in a long time...

Do you have every animal tested for crypto when it comes to you??? I doubt it... So if you got a gecko with crypto that never shows signs of having it, you would never know...

My findings have nothing to do with what Ron says... In any case, do you think Ron pulled his info from his rear??? I doubt it... Ron has been doing this longer and way more successfully than anyone you have ever met in your life... He does not do just leopard geckos you know...

Ok, you listed a guy named Tom and Kelli Hammack... Only one of those people I know and respect, obviously its Kelli... Those are 2 people out of how many large scale breeders, keepers, and importers??? Remember, all it takes is one infected animal to spread crypto... If it was that deadly, we would not have the amount of animals we do in captivity..

You say you have had countless necropsies done... I am sure the amount of necropsies you have had done is quite countable number 1... Number 2 you can not tell me that every animal that you had die was tested for crypto... Like I said, if the animals are properly cared for the animals own immune system will either fight off the parasite or keep its numbers down so low that it will be just about unditectable and will not affect the animal...

So which is it Gregg? Geckos already have crypto and then someone doesn't take care of them properly (poor husbandry) and they die, or they're infected and they die? It doesn't work both ways.

And I'm afraid if you do a quick search on google, and some reptile forums, you will find people posting stories of losing their entire collections to crypto, not to mention the two "big breeders" who Marcia already named. Maybe someone's collection of 20-30 geckos isn't significant to some, but to them, I don't even want to imagine the devastation.

I'm not sure where you are getting your information about MOST reptiles carrying crypto, but here's a chat log from a reputable vet on the subject. http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=66252 Seems you participated in the chat, but perhaps didn't like the answers he gave? Afterall, he's only been working on reptiles 20+ years and keeping them for over 50. If you have a different, more reliable source, I'd love to see it.

 

[OSUgecko]

No ones entire collection has been taken out due to crypto... Give me one example...

Ok, you listed a guy named Tom and Kelli Hammack... Only one of those people I know and respect, obviously its Kelli... Those are 2 people out of how many large scale breeders, keepers, and importers???

Ummm... you asked for one example, and she gave you two. That's not enough?

The ONLY thing that makes any parasite a danger is improper husbandry which causes immune systems to fail due to stresses of the reptile not getting what they need... This could be from not being heated properly, not getting the proper food, and/or not getting the proper supplements and immune boosting vits and minerals... It boils down to husbandry, not the parasite...

Wild animals often carry parasites. Most of them manage to remain healthy regardless (although some do die from parasites). Host/parasite relationships are usually somewhat adapted to each other; the parasites are not "trying" to kill the host. It is, after all, their food source. Illness occurs when the parasite load reaches levels above what the host can handle naturally. I agree that there is definitely an immune system component to many parasitic diseases, and captivity can certainly be a stress. However, that is not the only reason captive herps have more "recognized parasite problems" than wild animals. Some examples:

1. Captive animals are constantly exposed to high levels of the parasite because they are kept in confinement

2. Captive animals are being monitored by people who care about them and notice when they are not 100% healthy. If all wild animals were monitored as closely as our domestic species I'm sure we would find a lot more problems than we recognize from a distance.

I also doubt captivity is as much of a stress on leopard geckos (who have been selectively bred in captivity for close to 30 years) in comparison to imported WCs. Especially when they are being given top notch care and husbandry... which I'm sure many, many people were providing when their animals died from cryptosporidium...

 

[supperl]

I dunno if this can help but I´ve done x-times tests for Crypto. All my geckos have been tested with Ziehl-Neelsen Staining, Elisa antigen test and PCR-Analysis.
Up to know all Geckos I have are negative for Crpytosporidiosis.

However we take it realy serious here and no Gecko will come into collection without these 3 tests beeing made.

I know these tests can go wrong but 3 good qualitied tests made at Laboklin and the university in Wien I mean at least one had to be positive and I test at least once in the year all groupes.

 

[KelliH]

This is a touchy subject, and a great one to discuss. Let's not let our emotions get in the way of an intelligent discussion. I respect all involved.

 

[Gregg M]

So which is it Gregg? Geckos already have crypto and then someone doesn't take care of them properly (poor husbandry) and they die, or they're infected and they die? It doesn't work both ways.

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here Debbie... Animals CAN CARRY crypto without it ever affecting them especially when cared for properly... When infected animals are not cared for properly they can die from crypto or any other parasite for that matter... Not sure how you can determine how the natural world works... It does work both ways and 10 different other ways...

In the book "The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos", the author plainly states that he believes ALL leopard geckos have crypto. IMO, this is admitting that he has crypto in every single one of his animals... but obviously has not lost his entire colony to the disease. Yet.

Lets say this is the case, why has he not lost his entire collection "yet"??? Why has no one who bought his animals lost their entire collection??? Maybe what I have to say does have a bit or truth to it no matter how much some people do not want to see it...

 

[Gregg M]

Ummm... you asked for one example, and she gave you two. That's not enough?



Wild animals often carry parasites. Most of them manage to remain healthy regardless (although some do die from parasites). Host/parasite relationships are usually somewhat adapted to each other; the parasites are not "trying" to kill the host. It is, after all, their food source. Illness occurs when the parasite load reaches levels above what the host can handle naturally. I agree that there is definitely an immune system component to many parasitic diseases, and captivity can certainly be a stress. However, that is not the only reason captive herps have more "recognized parasite problems" than wild animals. Some examples:

Animals do not die from parasites... Parasites can only be a problem if there is another, more serious health problem...

1. Captive animals are constantly exposed to high levels of the parasite because they are kept in confinement.

Regular cleanings will keep an animal from constantly reinfecting itself...

2. Captive animals are being monitored by people who care about them and notice when they are not 100% healthy. If all wild animals were monitored as closely as our domestic species I'm sure we would find a lot more problems than we recognize from a distance.

You must have missed it when I was talking about the dozens of wild caught vipers I have kept over the years... Anyway, any viper I had tested for parasites did have a parasite load... Infact 100% of the animals I had tested had a parasite load... Here is the kicker... I never once administered any type of deworming medication... Guess what, a few months in a stress free environment where they were kept properly, the parasite loads decreased so much, in some cases, parasites were almost non existant... Reason for me not deworming vipers is because most vipers retain fecal matter and they do not pass fecal matter frequently... If you hit them with a cocktail of "worm killer" you will kill the parasites but now the dead parasite load will rot and fester in the vipers GI tract... Not a good thing if you want your new captive to live...

I also doubt captivity is as much of a stress on leopard geckos (who have been selectively bred in captivity for close to 30 years) in comparison to imported WCs. Especially when they are being given top notch care and husbandry... which I'm sure many, many people were providing when their animals died from cryptosporidium...

Ok, as much as you would like to think so, leopard geckos are not domesticated... They will suffer the same stresses of captive life as wild caughts will... No reptile wants to be subject to being picked up, poked at, snuggled, kissed or anything remotely like that... Also we control their environmental conditions... Almost everyone you talk with will give you the same general heat/humidity/cage set up they read in some outdated caresheet... My idea of top notch care may be very different than yours...:main_thumbsup:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Gregg, sometimes I think you are more concerned about being 'right' than making your opinions clear, LOL! If you look back over your many statements, many of them are contradictory, or at least ambiguous at best.

OK, so let's say that ALL leopard geckos aready have cryptosporidium in their systems, and it does not become symptomatic until they are stressed or are lacking in husbandry. This causes the crypto to begin reproducing to levels that are at clinical stages of infection. Then the gecko dies. This is well-known a fact with ANY pathenogenic infections.

The contradiction is that if ALL leopard geckos have crypto, then how could a clinically infected gecko infect other 'un-stressed' or properly cared-for geckos if they already have it? These geckos have been doing well for years, and then they come into contact with crypto infected feces and water, and suddenly get sick and die. It just doesn't add up!

Lets say this is the case, why has he not lost his entire collection "yet"??? Why has no one who bought his animals lost their entire collection???

Simple! Not ALL leopard geckos have crypto! "He" is wrong. Besides, if 'he' truly believes all of his geckos have crypto, then ethically he should not be selling ANY of them. Thank GOD for people who practice strict quarantine protocol!

The fact is, that not all leopard geckos have crypto infections. It is true that crypto can stay at sub-clinical levels in the GI system of some leopard geckos for up to a year, and they would otherwise 'appear to be healthy and asymptomatic. Then, something happens to compromise their immune system and all hell breaks loose with a full-blown crypto infection.

The infection spreads when the oocysts are shedding in the host (in it's reproductive stage), and are transmissable vial oral/fecal contact. So, if another gecko who is ASSumed to aready have the parasite suddenly exhibits symptoms, and there has been no change in it's enviroment or husbandry in many years, it would make sense that it is a new infection... recently transmitted and contracted.

I have had over 14 necrospies performed on sick and/or dead geckos. Dr. Frederick L. Frye himself (the world's most reputable and famous Reptile Patholiogist) performed 2 of those post mortems himself. NO EVIDENCE OF CRYPTO WAS OBSERVED IN THE GI TRACTS OF ANY OF THOSE SPECIMENS.

So, the confusion is, that if all geckos have crypto anyway, how can they catch it from a known infected animal? They already had it, right? It is utter nonsense to make these unfounded ASSumptions, especially when the huge majority of reptile veterniarians and pathologists say it isn't the case. If all leopard geckos have crypto, then surely ALL of them would wind up dying from the disease eventually... most likely sooner than later. By virtue of the number of 10+ year old geckos in people's collections (many as high as 20+ years), this simply is not the case.

 

[voretaq7]

Gregg -

I'm having the same trouble following your "all leos have (sub-clinical) crypto" logic as a lot of other people seem to be. While this may be true in a certain population (crypto got into a breeding colony and every leo there is infected) I doubt it's true for all captive leos, and moreso for the wild population.

All my research indicates that if you have a leo infected with crypto any minor change can disrupt the disease equilibrium and the gecko almost always dies -- Wild geckos are subject to far greater variations, and if crypto was more than an edge case in the wild I doubt we'd have had any leos to capture.


In either case, the validity of your "all leos carry crypto" argument can be fully tested by the answer to one simple question: Has anyone ever had an adult leo test negative for crypto on either 2 IFA tests (performed at least one month apart) or a single ELISA test.
The diagnostic accuracy of those tests is high enough to say that a negative result conclusively rules out crypto.

 

[Gregg M]

Gregg, sometimes I think you are more concerned about being 'right' than making your opinions clear, LOL!

You might very well be on to something there Marcia... LOL I think we all suffer from this disorder from time to time...

In either case, the validity of your "all leos carry crypto" argument can be fully tested by the answer to one simple question: Has anyone ever had an adult leo test negative for crypto on either 2 IFA tests (performed at least one month apart) or a single ELISA test.
The diagnostic accuracy of those tests is high enough to say that a negative result conclusively rules out crypto.

Quote me where I said ALL leos have crypto... I never said that or claimed this.... I am saying that it is not an uncommon situation in reptiles and is pretty common in wild populations...

 

[OSUgecko]

Animals do not die from parasites... Parasites can only be a problem if there is another, more serious health problem...

Sorry Greg, this is catagorically untrue. You need to do more research into this area before making statements like that.

Anyway, any viper I had tested for parasites did have a parasite load... Infact 100% of the animals I had tested had a parasite load... Here is the kicker... I never once administered any type of deworming medication... Guess what, a few months in a stress free environment where they were kept properly, the parasite loads decreased so much, in some cases, parasites were almost non existant...

As you stated previously, proper cleaning of the environment can do much to help reduce reinfection. Over time, conscientious cleaning may reduce the parasite load significantly... but will not eliminate them without the administration of dewormers.

Depending on the type of worm seen and the clinical condition of the animal, I do not think deworming all animals is necessary. But some animals do require the assistance of antiparasite medications in order to survive and thrive. You have just been lucky so far.

Ok, as much as you would like to think so, leopard geckos are not domesticated...

I never claimed that they were. IMO, animals born in captivity, that have been selectively bred for years, are going to be less stressed by remaining in that state than WCs that were removed from their natural environment and shipped halfway around the world to live in a tank in someone's house.

Also, just because your reptiles don't seek out human interaction doesn't mean that all of them don't. At least three of my reptiles (two leopard geckos and a water dragon) recognize me, will respond to their names, and seem to enjoy being petted. I interact with them frequently and they are very tame and relaxed when being handled. Wild reptiles do not respond to human contact that way.

Almost everyone you talk with will give you the same general heat/humidity/cage set up they read in some outdated caresheet... My idea of top notch care may be very different than yours...:main_thumbsup:

I don't know who you are talking to, but it isn't the majority of people on this forum. I fully appreciate that you have a different idea of top notch care than I do. That does not mean that I am taking care of my animals incorrectly or that they are not healthy. Nor does it mean that well cared for animals (like Kelli's) cannot die from cryptosporidium.

 

[dprince]

I am not sure I understand what you are saying here Debbie... Animals CAN CARRY crypto without it ever affecting them especially when cared for properly... When infected animals are not cared for properly they can die from crypto or any other parasite for that matter... Not sure how you can determine how the natural world works... It does work both ways and 10 different other ways...

Gregg, sometimes I think you are more concerned about being 'right' than making your opinions clear, LOL! If you look back over your many statements, many of them are contradictory, or at least ambiguous at best.

OK, so let's say that ALL leopard geckos aready have cryptosporidium in their systems, and it does not become symptomatic until they are stressed or are lacking in husbandry. This causes the crypto to begin reproducing to levels that are at clinical stages of infection. Then the gecko dies. This is well-known a fact with ANY pathenogenic infections.

The contradiction is that if ALL leopard geckos have crypto, then how could a clinically infected gecko infect other 'un-stressed' or properly cared-for geckos if they already have it? These geckos have been doing well for years, and then they come into contact with crypto infected feces and water, and suddenly get sick and die. It just doesn't add up!

{sic}

So, the confusion is, that if all geckos have crypto anyway, how can they catch it from a known infected animal? They already had it, right? It is utter nonsense to make these unfounded ASSumptions, especially when the huge majority of reptile veterniarians and pathologists say it isn't the case. If all leopard geckos have crypto, then surely ALL of them would wind up dying from the disease eventually... most likely sooner than later. By virtue of the number of 10+ year old geckos in people's collections (many as high as 20+ years), this simply is not the case.

Perhaps Marcia answered your question Gregg?

 

[dprince]

Quote me where I said ALL leos have crypto... I never said that or claimed this.... I am saying that it is not an uncommon situation in reptiles and is pretty common in wild populations...

OK.

In the wild, you will be hard pressed to find a reptile that does not have or carry crypto... These parasites and other parasites are a natural part of life as a reptile... The ONLY thing that makes any parasite a danger is improper husbandry which causes immune systems to fail due to stresses of the reptile not getting what they need... This could be from not being heated properly, not getting the proper food, and/or not getting the proper supplements and immune boosting vits and minerals... It boils down to husbandry, not the parasite...

I can say this through experience with imported vipers I have in my care for years... Not one was ever de-wormed or treated for any internal parasite for good reason... If you want to know the main reason, ask me in PM... Fecals came back clean after just a few months... Are the parasites 100% gone??? I doubt it, but the parasite load is so low, that test come up neg...

Perhaps you didn't say "all leos have crypto", but your above statement sure makes it sound as if this were the case, or pretty close to it. :main_huh: