CULLING IN GENERAL

[Tony C]

That being said, tail kinks etc that come from KNOWN injuries and are not born with do not fall under that catagory IMO.

Agreed, if you know for a fact that it is the result of an injury then there is no genetic risk and no reason to cull it.

 

[prettyinpink]

What if a gecko hatches fine, but somehow gets a tail kink later on from something? I've had 2 that it's happened to. I didn't put them down. I don't see it being genetic, but I'm not sure how it happened. What would you do to them?

Luckily I haven't hatched out any this season with eye or jaw problems. If I do, they'll be culled right away. It's never an easy thing to do, but it's the right thing.

I aggree with that... It's not easy thing to do, that's why I'm not breeding myself yet as I'm not ready for it.

All I was saying is shouldn't SOME things be at least thought about.

For example...there's enigma's that have horriable vision and you don't scream cull at them. They would NOT survive in the wild.

I do believe what you're talking about 'survival of the fittest' which is accurate. I don't know, all I'm saying is I think some things should be looked at twice, I don't think it's fair if you keep some but don't keep the others because they aren't pretty. Hmm... Although, what you'll probably say to that is there's no one to make that color come out, and then breed out THAT unhealthy gene. That does make sense. So what I was just about to say wouldn't be accurate! LOL!

Maybe it's just because I don't have the heart to do it :main_no:

 

[M_surinamensis]

If I have a baby with a missing toe... then I hand her off to someone else and made sure they did not breed them. Say they didn't listen to me and bred her anyways... and that baby had a missing toe. Honeslty it would take forever for the gene pool to get messed up.

Not necessarily.

The more rare or desirable traits an animal possesses, the more likely it, and its offspring, are to end up being prolific.

Kahl line albino boas are a pretty good example of how such a problem can get out of hand if people choose to ignore genetic management. The line has a high frequency of eye deformities, misshapen eyes and missing eyes are comparatively common relative to the rate of similar problems in the general population of the species. The eye deformities cropped up pretty early on- exactly how early is unknown, since the people who initially produced the morph and those who heavily invested in it prior to sales to the general public refuse to share what they know. By the time they were listed on online classified ads and showing up at reptile shows- still expensive, but available- it was widely known that the problem existed and that it was genetic.

Some people bred them anyway, because they didn't care.

Some people bred the siblings of deformed animals, because they didn't care. Or because the person they bought it from had destroyed the deformed individuals and then lied about the problem appearing in the clutch.

Lots of people were outbreeding, trying to create hets to expand their future projects. Mixing up the eye deformity genes with the general population.

Eye issues are now more common in boa constrictors, even those which aren't involved directly in albino projects, than they were before Kahl loosed the cycloptic genes on the open market. It is still not a common problem outside of albino breeding lines, but it is more of a problem than it was before by an exponential factor.

A similar situation happened with texas rat snakes and the leucistic morph decades ago- and these days in captive populations, the "bug eye" trait is all too common among animals which both are and are not leucistic. Two random normals bred together can produce bug eyed babies- because they have been contaminated by indiscriminate breeding and lax genetic management.

So your gecko missing a toe example... if the gecko has a nice color or an unusual pattern, it would be bred by someone unscrupulous and it would end up out there.

Quite frankly, there are people who, as I said, just do not care about the damage they are doing tomorrow as long as they can make a buck today. And a bunch more people who just don't understand why it is so important. That is why people who have been proponents of aggressive culling on this board recently see it as being such a big deal; they want everyone who is inclined to do the right thing to be fully informed and to use that information to make the right- though difficult- decision if they ever find themselves in a situation where euthanasia is the indicated course.

The bad guys are already going to be doing bad things, the people who just don't know any better can be stopped though, they can be educated and they can be set in a better direction. If everyone who had good intentions had the right information to practice appropriate culling procedures, they would constantly strengthen the captive stock and minimize the damage done by the unscrupulous types. Furthermore, it would reduce the market that the scumbags prey upon- jerking the heartstrings for a quick sale of a substandard animal.

Getting back to the missing toe example as well... just because a trait is expressed in one individual as a minor defect, that does not mean that there is not greater potential for worse defects inherent in the negative mutation. That one missing toe from the stock animal might end up being no toes a few generations later- or worse, depending on exactly what a defective gene is doing to cause the visible result.

For example...there's enigma's that have horriable vision and you don't scream cull at them.

Sure I do. Having recently, casually looked into the enigma problems and seen the thoughts of people who have worked with the trait with regards to the method of transmission, I would encourage them to all be universally culled, regardless of the degree to which they are expressing problems.

And as soon as I see a thread where someone makes a post saying they have hatched out an enigma that's having issues, I'll suggest culling. I haven't seen those threads yet though, where I have seen a few of them in the last couple weeks where people raised the subjects of eye problems, jaw problems and kinked vertebra.

 

[prettyinpink]

Thank you for that. :yes: It was a very informative read. Now I understand why you do it.

I just hope we're doing it for the good, as it seems like such a tragic thing to do. I just hope we actually take a look at him/her and say is it really worth it? You know? I just hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

Could I ask if there's any more information into this that I could read on. As someone wanting to breed but isn't ready for this part:main_no:... which would make the transition much much easier on me/and others who are interested, as in how to do it if it comes to the time, ect.
Like how were you guys the first time you did it, what did you do, how did you do it (most humane way), what to expect and when to do it.

I think this topic is so controversial and hard for people to talk about it...for me even though I have no experience, but I think it would help others who need help on doing this also.
-I just would like to be prepared if it were to ever happen to me...and I hope it never does.

 

[Keith N]

Thank you for that. :yes: It was a very informative read. Now I understand why you do it.

I just hope we're doing it for the good, as it seems like such a tragic thing to do. I just hope we actually take a look at him/her and say is it really worth it? You know? I just hope you guys understand where I'm coming from.

Could I ask if there's any more information into this that I could read on. As someone wanting to breed but isn't ready for this part:main_no:... which would make the transition much much easier on me/and others who are interested, as in how to do it if it comes to the time, ect.
Like how were you guys the first time you did it, what did you do, how did you do it (most humane way), what to expect and when to do it.

I think this topic is so controversial and hard for people to talk about it...for me even though I have no experience, but I think it would help others who need help on doing this also.
-I just would like to be prepared if it were to ever happen to me...and I hope it never does.

The longer you are into breeding the more you will have to do it. Most that are pro culling have been around and learned about what you are now experiancing/learning. Had a deformed Mack Snow hatch out Tues. mishaped head, missing eye. Not for one minute did I have second thoughts of culling.

 

[Northstar Herp]

HAHA, not me... it's my first breeding season. I just grew up on a farm, so I was playing with the steer one week and eating him the next. Good boy...

Another thing to bring up is that we ARE talking about leopard geckos, perhaps the most inbred herp there is. The amount of deformities I hear about are staggering, especially eyes.

 

[Tony C]

The amount of deformities I hear about are staggering, especially eyes.

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the issues were nutritional. Eye and leg deformities have been linked to vitamin A deficiency in amphibians, and considering the fear of vitamin A supplementation in the reptile world I am not surprised at all to see those sort of issues. Look at how many people supplement only with calcium carbonate, or maybe calcium carbonate and D3, and completely ignore other important nutrients.

 

[BrilliantEraser]

Good point. I'd LOVE to do a feeding study for Leopard Geckos. Now who wants to help me find funding for the research? :laugh:

 

[M_surinamensis]

Another thing to bring up is that we ARE talking about leopard geckos, perhaps the most inbred herp there is. The amount of deformities I hear about are staggering, especially eyes.

Inbreeding doesn't actually cause problems, by itself.

It just continually reinforces everything that exists in the limited gene pool, substantially increasing the likelihood of anything which can be expressed to be expressed. If there's something nasty and dormant, deep in the genes that is unexpressed, inbreeding increases the chances of having it manifest eventually... but the same is true of positive traits; stronger immune responses, better physical form or muscle tone, better digestive abilities... and of traits that are basically neutral.

And most issues displayed by hatchlings aren't genetic anyway. They should just be treated as if they are because the possibility exists that they might be and that makes them dangerous.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I wouldn't be surprised if many of the issues were nutritional. Eye and leg deformities have been linked to vitamin A deficiency in amphibians, and considering the fear of vitamin A supplementation in the reptile world I am not surprised at all to see those sort of issues. Look at how many people supplement only with calcium carbonate, or maybe calcium carbonate and D3, and completely ignore other important nutrients.

I have to agree with Tony. Notched eyelids seem to be pretty typical with supplementation problems. We have a male with notched eyelids. I asked the breeder how they had supplemented his mother and they only dusted the feeders once a week. This male has never produced any babies with eyelid deformities. We have produced a few with eyelid problems and they were all eggs from the end of the season from different females who weren't eating well and had laid more eggs than usual. Obviously babies without eyelids need to be culled whether it's caused by genetics or not due to the fact that they will not be able to blink. However, I don't have a problem with notched eyelids as I've never seen it reproduced.

 

[prettyinpink]

Ok, since YOU guys don't have problems... Is there help for those, like me who do have problems and would think twice

Would it be ok if I had someone else do it for me? Even though it would still hurt. But I might be mad at that person for doing so.

Thanks again, Great thread!

 

[Tony C]

It is just something you have to do. Having an understanding of why and what harm could be done to future generations will certainly help, after that you just have to do it. It's never a pleasant task, no matter how many times you have done it before.

 

[prettyinpink]

I understand that. And I'm all for the good and everything. I'm just 99% sure when/if the time comes I wouldn't be strong enough to do it. Then everyone would criticize me for how a horriable person I am. I'm trying my best to not think that way, that they would be suffering more. I think depending on the situation, I would act differently... Meaning if they're struggling I'd be more willing. But like I said before if they have something as simple as one missing toe, I don't think I'd end their life for that.
For example... Tony with the little hatchling you had that was missing toes you didn't end her life - it was when she was suffering you did it.

I'm just not sure how to not put your emotions into it. I don't know how to do it.

Is this something every breeder had to do? Meaning...it will happen to me.

 

[Tony C]

For example... Tony with the little hatchling you had that was missing toes you didn't end her life - it was when she was suffering you did it.

She wasn't missing toes when she hatched, they were lost as a result of bad sheds. I would have culled her immediately if she hatched with toes missing.

Is this something every breeder had to do? Meaning...it will happen to me.

Yes, any animal breeder will (or should) have to cull sooner or later.

 

[Khrysty]

I understand that. And I'm all for the good and everything. I'm just 99% sure when/if the time comes I wouldn't be strong enough to do it. Then everyone would criticize me for how a horriable person I am. I'm trying my best to not think that way, that they would be suffering more. I think depending on the situation, I would act differently... Meaning if they're struggling I'd be more willing. But like I said before if they have something as simple as one missing toe, I don't think I'd end their life for that.
For example... Tony with the little hatchling you had that was missing toes you didn't end her life - it was when she was suffering you did it.

I'm just not sure how to not put your emotions into it. I don't know how to do it.

Is this something every breeder had to do? Meaning...it will happen to me.

Some people do keep those hatchlings. But doing so is a lifetime commitment. You could never sell them/adopt them out. You would be caring for them for the next 10 years. And while that's all well and good for one animal, what about 2? What about 10? Would you have the room?

What if they turn out gorgeous and you're tempted to breed them anyway? Would you be able to resist?

Sometimes culling, for the betterment of the species, is just the best option. If you understand that, then at least there's a sense of duty involved, instead of just the sadness that comes with killing a baby--especially one you more or less created yourself

 

[prettyinpink]

Some people do keep those hatchlings. But doing so is a lifetime commitment. You could never sell them/adopt them out. You would be caring for them for the next 10 years. And while that's all well and good for one animal, what about 2? What about 10? Would you have the room?

What if they turn out gorgeous and you're tempted to breed them anyway? Would you be able to resist?

Sometimes culling, for the betterment of the species, is just the best option. If you understand that, then at least there's a sense of duty involved, instead of just the sadness that comes with killing a baby--especially one you more or less created yourself

You're so right. I completly forgot to say that in my message. I would not be able to keep them, nor would I want to. That's why I haven't bred, for that reason.

I would NEVER breed them, I'm not that type of person.

I do have one more question. For the missing toe example. Would you EVER adopt it out? Even if it's someone you trust, talked to, ect? I'd just hate to kill it over such a simple thing, you know? Draw up a contract, where they can not breed period.

 

[prettyinpink]

She wasn't missing toes when she hatched, they were lost as a result of bad sheds. I would have culled her immediately if she hatched with toes missing.



Yes, any animal breeder will (or should) have to cull sooner or later.

Ok, that clears up what I was wondering.

I know your rep for culling, so I'm not going to bother asking.

 

[Khrysty]

You're so right. I completly forgot to say that in my message. I would not be able to keep them, nor would I want to. That's why I haven't bred, for that reason.

I would NEVER breed them, I'm not that type of person.

I do have one more question. For the missing toe example. Would you EVER adopt it out? Even if it's someone you trust, talked to, ect? I'd just hate to kill it over such a simple thing, you know? Draw up a contract, where they can not breed period.

Problem with that is no contract is legal and binding unless written by, signed by, and presided over by a lawyer. Meaning, it's just a piece of paper. There's no real way of knowing or forcing someone to commit to an ethical decision like that.

And even a simple missing toe could be a sign of major genetic defects just lying, coded in the dna. Meaning, any breeding could result in further poisoning of the gene pool.

 

[prettyinpink]

Problem with that is no contract is legal and binding unless written by, signed by, and presided over by a lawyer. Meaning, it's just a piece of paper. There's no real way of knowing or forcing someone to commit to an ethical decision like that.

And even a simple missing toe could be a sign of major genetic defects just lying, coded in the dna. Meaning, any breeding could result in further poisoning of the gene pool.

IF that were to happen to me I'd have it notarized for sure. But even so it doesn't need to be notarized, if you sign a document it's legally binding. It just helps the case in court.

So, If I have a leo and it has a missing toe (yes, still doing this) and I get a contract drawn up and signed...and hand it off to someone would that make me a bad breeder?
I'm NOT saying I'm going to do this, I'm just curious. Like I said before I DO agree to end those who are suffering as it isn't fair. I HATED seeing that story of the poor blind gecko that drowned himself. :main_no:

Yes...I'm a tough person to talk to :main_lipsrsealed: I just don't think it's fair, Maybe I'm wrong. But if that gecko isn't going to breed I don't see anything wrong keeping it alive if it's missing one toe. Am I wrong there? I can't be because you said keeping it is ok

I still apreciate the help:main_thumbsup:, even though you probably are annoyed of me by now!

 

[Tony C]

It all depends on WHY the toes are missing. If they are the result of poor husbandry leading to bad sheds, loss of blood flow and loss of the toes, once those husbandry issues are corrected and the gecko is healthy then there is no reason not to breed it. If they are missing from birth then culling would be in order.