CULLING IN GENERAL

[fl_orchidslave]

A breeder would not be able to maintain a good reputation over a period of time by selling defective animals with any kind of regularity. People talk. It's a smaller world than we think.

Here's a very real scenario: It might not be a big deal to care for a special needs animal for it's entire life if you only have a few, but suppose there are 20 or 30. So maybe adopt it out to a nice person that isn't interested in breeding who would lovingly care for this beautiful animal. That's where you can no longer guarantee it's future. Situations change. They had to move, get rid of a dog, cat, special needs leo. Stressed out, it goes to someone who has a nice little group, about to embark on their first breeding project. They have to get rid of the animal ASAP so off it goes. I could go on but I think you get the picture.

It's never easy to cull. It's just not as hard when you know it's the right thing to do. I cried all afternoon the first time I had to put one down.

 

[prettyinpink]

It all depends on WHY the toes are missing. If they are the result of poor husbandry leading to bad sheds, loss of blood flow and loss of the toes, once those husbandry issues are corrected and the gecko is healthy then there is no reason not to breed it. If they are missing from birth then culling would be in order.

Like I said earlier, I understand it's ok to breed if it's not something from birth.

A breeder would not be able to maintain a good reputation over a period of time by selling defective animals with any kind of regularity. People talk. It's a smaller world than we think.

Here's a very real scenario: It might not be a big deal to care for a special needs animal for it's entire life if you only have a few, but suppose there are 20 or 30. So maybe adopt it out to a nice person that isn't interested in breeding who would lovingly care for this beautiful animal. That's where you can no longer guarantee it's future. Situations change. They had to move, get rid of a dog, cat, special needs leo. Stressed out, it goes to someone who has a nice little group, about to embark on their first breeding project. They have to get rid of the animal ASAP so off it goes. I could go on but I think you get the picture.

It's never easy to cull. It's just not as hard when you know it's the right thing to do. I cried all afternoon the first time I had to put one down.

Oh trust me I know people talk

Ok, I understand. But if I were to have a contract drawn up...passing the gecko onto someone else wouldn't be legal.

I'm not trying to start a fight or anything, honestly... but what you're telling me is it's ok to keep something that was born with a messed up tail or a missing toe. But it's NOT ok to adopt it out (I wouldn't call it selling) if I have a contract drawn up. Maybe I'm missing something :main_huh: I just can't sit here and agree with something I don't think is fair.

If this makes me a bad breeder by standing for what I believe in... then I guess that's what I'll have to deal with. If no one stands beside me, then that's what I'll have to deal with. I don't think I could ever kill something living that can/will live a perfect life. There are hundreds of people that are out there that have geckos just as pets. And for saying it's ok for me to keep it but not give it to a kind person isn't fair.

You don't have to agree with me...that's not what I'm saying. I just don't think it's right to call someone a bad breeder for this. I'm not suffering any leos, or messing up any gene pools.

 

[prettyinpink]

I just wanted to add... I'm in no way saying what you guys are doing is wrong. I'm just saying me personally and me only.

 

[M_surinamensis]

Ok, I understand. But if I were to have a contract drawn up...passing the gecko onto someone else wouldn't be legal.

The enforceability of something like that is pretty much nonexistent.

 

[T-ReXx]

The enforceability of something like that is pretty much nonexistent.

Very true. How would you even know that the animal was or was not bred? How would you prove such a thing in a legal situation? And what kind of ramifications would really be able to be brought against some one who broke such a "contract?" No, that sort of idea is not realistically possible.

 

[Khrysty]

If this makes me a bad breeder by standing for what I believe in... then I guess that's what I'll have to deal with. If no one stands beside me, then that's what I'll have to deal with. I don't think I could ever kill something living that can/will live a perfect life. There are hundreds of people that are out there that have geckos just as pets. And for saying it's ok for me to keep it but not give it to a kind person isn't fair.

You don't have to agree with me...that's not what I'm saying. I just don't think it's right to call someone a bad breeder for this. I'm not suffering any leos, or messing up any gene pools.

Please know that no one here is attacking you personally. This is a discussion that's been going on forever, and not just with leos.

The fact of the matter, the one that you don't quite seem to understand, is that not all people can be trusted to do as you ask. Not only that, but even if trust wasn't a factor, not all life circumstances remain the same.

Adopting a malformed animal to a new home will only work if there is a guarantee that it won't be bred. A contract is not a guarantee. As has been said, there is just no way to enforce it. You tell your lawyer that person A bred a gecko that person B made them promise not to breed and you get laughed out of the courtroom.

There is no guarantee short of spay/neuter, which is just not an option for a reptile so small, with such an unpredictable reaction to anesthesia. So the two choices remain: keep it or cull it. There is no in between.

If you're that concerned about the individual animal, then the answer is pretty obvious, isn't it? If you ever produce an unhealthy or malformed animal, you would want to FIND room to keep it, to ensure that you're doing the most ethical thing you can. No one's calling you, or any others a potentially bad breeder. You just don't seem to understand that that third option, adoption, is not (or rather, should not be) available in situations like this.

 

[prettyinpink]

Please know that no one here is attacking you personally. This is a discussion that's been going on forever, and not just with leos.

The fact of the matter, the one that you don't quite seem to understand, is that not all people can be trusted to do as you ask. Not only that, but even if trust wasn't a factor, not all life circumstances remain the same.

Adopting a malformed animal to a new home will only work if there is a guarantee that it won't be bred. A contract is not a guarantee. As has been said, there is just no way to enforce it. You tell your lawyer that person A bred a gecko that person B made them promise not to breed and you get laughed out of the courtroom.

There is no guarantee short of spay/neuter, which is just not an option for a reptile so small, with such an unpredictable reaction to anesthesia. So the two choices remain: keep it or cull it. There is no in between.

If you're that concerned about the individual animal, then the answer is pretty obvious, isn't it? If you ever produce an unhealthy or malformed animal, you would want to FIND room to keep it, to ensure that you're doing the most ethical thing you can. No one's calling you, or any others a potentially bad breeder. You just don't seem to understand that that third option, adoption, is not (or rather, should not be) available in situations like this.

I understand. There wouldn't be anyway to prove it, you guys are right. I just wish everyone was trust worthy and wouldn't be stupid enough to breed a gecko like that :main_no:

Oh, I wasn't thinking anyone was attacking me at all! I'm very happy with this thread:main_thumbsup:

Alright... well I guess we'll just have to wait and see what happens. I'd hate to see myself keep it and then later down the read I have another you know? But like I said earlier it would hurt me so much to cull something that isn't really suffering. I'd be culling it to keep the strong gene pool alive.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I don't know exactly what defects you're talking about that would have a perfect life, maybe tail kinks and the suchlike, but I think you're best bet if ever you start to breed would to plan to keep all such animals. Like others have been saying, once you adopt it out, you lose control over whether that animal contributes to the gene pool or not, and our care for leos in general is bigger than just one animal.

That's just what I would do if I were you.

 

[prettyinpink]

I don't know exactly what defects you're talking about that would have a perfect life, maybe tail kinks and the suchlike, but I think you're best bet if ever you start to breed would to plan to keep all such animals. Like others have been saying, once you adopt it out, you lose control over whether that animal contributes to the gene pool or not, and our care for leos in general is bigger than just one animal.

That's just what I would do if I were you.

Yea I was thinking the same thing... What I was referring to was just simple things like missing toe or tail kinks :main_thumbsup:

 

[lizardfreak]

If a person is born with some sort of deformity do we kill them? No!
Same thing goes with geckos or reptiles of any sort.
I have a gecko that is looking as thought she will never
eat again and her vet is stumped. Why should I kill her? she is
still perfect in every other way!
And sorry for all you atheists out there, But God made her and she is beautiful!!!!

 

[Northstar Herp]

There is a difference between a human and a reptile, and IMO, a theistic worldview gives you EVEN MORE reason to agree with that.

Not eating isn't what we're talking about. The thread is about birth defects. I don't think anyone would say you should cull your gecko that isn't eating. The problem could is probably husbandry related anyway.

Like in many discussions, it's easy to draw a line in the sand and make everything black and white, but it just isn't really that way. You can see that by how long this thread continues to churn.

 

[prettyinpink]

There is a difference between a human and a reptile, and IMO, a theistic worldview gives you EVEN MORE reason to agree with that.

Not eating isn't what we're talking about. The thread is about birth defects. I don't think anyone would say you should cull your gecko that isn't eating. The problem could is probably husbandry related anyway.

Like in many discussions, it's easy to draw a line in the sand and make everything black and white, but it just isn't really that way. You can see that by how long this thread continues to churn.

+1
Agreeed. As much as I think they should be treated well... it's not the same concept we're talking about.

 

[Keith N]

It all depends on WHY the toes are missing. If they are the result of poor husbandry leading to bad sheds, loss of blood flow and loss of the toes, once those husbandry issues are corrected and the gecko is healthy then there is no reason not to breed it. If they are missing from birth then culling would be in order.

If a person is born with some sort of deformity do we kill them? No!
Same thing goes with geckos or reptiles of any sort.
I have a gecko that is looking as thought she will never
eat again and her vet is stumped. Why should I kill her? she is
still perfect in every other way!
And sorry for all you atheists out there, But God made her and she is beautiful!!!!

God didn't make the animal, the breeder that introduced the two together produced them. It has nothing to do with religion it has all to do with the responsibility of the person breeding. Again have you seen many deformed animals in the wild? Natural selection takes them out of the equation.

 

[BrilliantEraser]

I agree with Keith. Actually, he pretty much took my exact words out of my mouth!

 

[acpart]

If you have a gecko that needs to be culled and you can't do it, you can always take it to a vet and ask him/her to do it, although they will charge. I had a hatchling with an abdominal hernia a few years ago and took it to my local vet who charged me $25. Now I ask my brother the vet to do it for me.

I do have opinions about what I will do with geckos who have mild deformities that I am pretty sure are the result of incubation issues, but I will not go into them again here. I also feel that talking about whether or not to cull is akin to having a discussion about abortion (no, I don't mean that culling is like abortion, I mean that people have strong polarized feelings about that issue, are not likely to change their minds and each side tends to feel that doing it their way is the only ethical choice). There is a certain point at which the same opinions get stated again and again with no gain.

Aliza

 

[prettyinpink]

If you have a gecko that needs to be culled and you can't do it, you can always take it to a vet and ask him/her to do it, although they will charge. I had a hatchling with an abdominal hernia a few years ago and took it to my local vet who charged me $25. Now I ask my brother the vet to do it for me.

I do have opinions about what I will do with geckos who have mild deformities that I am pretty sure are the result of incubation issues, but I will not go into them again here. I also feel that talking about whether or not to cull is akin to having a discussion about abortion (no, I don't mean that culling is like abortion, I mean that people have strong polarized feelings about that issue, are not likely to change their minds and each side tends to feel that doing it their way is the only ethical choice). There is a certain point at which the same opinions get stated again and again with no gain.

Aliza

I can do it myself, it will be hard. Honestly if I were to give it to someone or if I do it. It's still MY gecko that I produced, and if someone does my job for me I consider it's still me culling.

I think their was gain in this thread, I learned quite a few things I didn't know before, and I like seeing other people's opinions on this thread even if I may or may not like them. :main_thumbsup:

 

[acpart]

I agree that there was something gained from the discussion in this thread and I'm glad we got a thread dedicated just to this. It's possible we are getting close to the end of the gain and I'm hoping that becomes clear when the time comes.

Aliza

 

[tlbowling]

I have a question about all this culling...Where do you draw the line for tail kinks or missing toes, etc.? Do you cull ONLY the babies that have the issue, or do you cull their perfectly normal appearing siblings b/c they maybe carriers for the gene? Do you cull the problem parent, so this cant be passed on in the future? Where does it stop and start?

 

[acpart]

That's a very good question and it points to the slippery slope that culling can be.

Aliza

 

[Northstar Herp]

I don't know that it's a slippery slope. Each breeder has to make decisions as to what deformities are "cullable". Once the parameters are established, abide by them.

I see no reason to dispose of a breeder who produces a cullable hatchling, or the non-deformed hatchmates. Until somebody has some evidence for missing eyelids or tail kinks being a recessive trait, anyway.