Curly Tail Leopard Gecko ???

[Jen1711]

I would rather have curly tailed geckos then retarded geckos any day.

 

[cat_named_noodles]

Jen1711- besides the fact enigmas aren't "retarded," enigma breeders are not intentionally breeding FOR defects, but rather the opposite, trying to get rid of them. Ethical breeders DO NOT breed enigmas with the severe spin/head tilt issues. Willyg was breeding for a DEFORMITY, which is not condoned in the leopard gecko breeding comminuty. And like I already said, outward deformities often go hand in hand with inward deformities, so there's a very good chance the curly-tails have other issues involved.

 

[justindh1]

Justin, breeders are outcrossing Enigmas to reduce the problems they carry. Doesn't sound like they believe the problems are "okay" to keep. I find that some breeders even cull(vet term) Enigmas from breeding projects if they are experiencing severe symptoms. Just my opinion

They are outcrossing to reduce the problems but it will not solve them. We have been told that they will not be completly free of the defect. The defect goes with the morph and is in its genes. Outcrossing will limit the numbers that show the defect but they will have the genetics in them. Its like starting with kool-aid and diluting it. The more you dilute it the less kool-aid is in there and the less it taste like kool-aid but it still has in it. It will always be there but you may not taste it.

They were releases with the knowledge of the problems that they had. They should of be outcrossed then and held off before released. If they didn't think the defect was okay then why would they release them with knowledge of the defects? Most of them had it when they were first introduced and they were sold. The problem became known to the public after being sold.

Whether a tail curl will affect its life or not is something that anyone can quess at but circling is differant. A tail curl shouldn't effect the geckos life but circling does. Its like saying i would rather cirlce while i walk instead of having curly hair.

Its not about the enigma because it over and done with and nobody can change the misfortune of that morph. Its about defects and how they affect the gecko and whether it will cause it to have a unhappy existence.

 

[Ehatcher]

These geckos should not be bred and offered to other people to breed. Before you know it every larry, curly and moe will be breeding these genes into multiple blood lines, potentially hurting the leopard gecko industry.

I can tell you one thing, if you were to breed those geckos for that amazing color... you would sell them all and at a good prices. With that curley tail though, they are worth less than the ugliest normal in my opinion. I wouldnt give you a dollar for them.

P.S. these are reptiles... not dogs.

 

[Pepper]

The thing with exterior deformities is usually they are internal also.

Pug dogs have been mentioned in this thread. Many pugs have severely crooked and warped spines because of their curly tail. The tail in pugs is an extension of the spinal cord, and there tails are curled to such a gross degree that the spine is usually effected, which can cause many problems, as their whole bodies sense of balance is thrown off.

Rhodesian Ridge backs. They have a ridge of hair going the opposite direction running up their spine. Many breeders cull puppies on the spot who do not have the ridge(if they show dogs). Oddly enough, many of the dogs with the ridge have a genetic disorder that causes them to have some sort of hole in their skin which inevitably can kill them, and some are just un healthy. Ones without the ridge of hair do not get this disorder and are perfectly healthy(unless afflicted by other disorders not related) The only reason people like the ridge is because it was thought dogs with the largest ridge was said to be the best hunter...

(I could go on and on about exterior deformities causing interior problems)

Very pretty Leo's though!

 

[thestack510]

I would think that breeding animals to intentionally have a curly tail and fostering this trait could only result in further curvature of the spine and doesn't afford the animal a fair chance at a normal life. If my theory is correct an animal with a curved spine would be unable to hunt for it's own food, which in my eyes is just plain cruel. I would venture to say that breeding more curly tails from your original livestock has proven this defect to be genetic and IMO should be discontinued unless you are a certified vet and can provide the proper care in any situation that may arise in your group. This is only my opinion.

 

[KelliH]

Thanks for explaining what culling means, Marcia.

I personally would not euthanize a gecko that hatched with a curly tail like those. It would not be held back in my breeding program though, and it would not be sold to someone as a breeder, but as "pet only". Of course I will euthanize geckos that will not be able to live normal lives such as those that hatch with no eyes or other severe deformities. That is the humane thing to do in cases like that.

As far as comparisons to the Enigmas... well, first of all as far as I know Enigmas are not "retarted", and secondly that particular topic has been debated just about to death here on GF and anyone that wants to learn about them can do a search.

 

[ajveachster]

I would venture to say that breeding more curly tails from your original livestock has proven this defect to be genetic and IMO should be discontinued unless you are a certified vet and can provide the proper care in any situation that may arise in your group. This is only my opinion.

There are others with degrees who share your opinion.

I was curious about it so I took a picture to my vet when I was there yesterday with one of my geckos (who is fine by the way). It is a herp vet. Actually the head vet at the location is also the herp vet at the local zoo, so there are some credentials to back up their opinions. Anyway, he said the curly tail is a physical deformity that should not be fostered in breeding projects. He said typically that type of external deformity is accompanied by internal deformities. He also said based on the fact that the curl increased in the second generation it does appear to be a genetic trait, and his advice to me was to stay away from it. He said usually that type of deformity comes from too much inbreeding. I wasn't sure if I wanted to post this or not, but decided I'll take the backlash chance. I figured there were other people besides me who might want to know what a vet thought , and didn't want to fork out the cash for a consultation. Actually, the vet kept the picture I had so he could share it with his colleagues. He seemed pretty put off by the idea, and said he will be on the lookout for it. Others may disagree, but I think I'll take his advice.

 

[thestack510]

There are others with degrees who share your opinion.

I was curious about it so I took a picture to my vet when I was there yesterday with one of my geckos (who is fine by the way). It is a herp vet. Actually the head vet at the location is also the herp vet at the local zoo, so there are some credentials to back up their opinions. Anyway, he said the curly tail is a physical deformity that should not be fostered in breeding projects. He said typically that type of external deformity is accompanied by internal deformities. He also said based on the fact that the curl increased in the second generation it does appear to be a genetic trait, and his advice to me was to stay away from it. He said usually that type of deformity comes from too much inbreeding. I wasn't sure if I wanted to post this or not, but decided I'll take the backlash chance. I figured there were other people besides me who might want to know what a vet thought , and didn't want to fork out the cash for a consultation. Actually, the vet kept the picture I had so he could share it with his colleagues. He seemed pretty put off by the idea, and said he will be on the lookout for it. Others may disagree, but I think I'll take his advice.

:main_thumbsup:

 

[mlw50]

There is so much misinformation in this thread I don't even know where to start. It's actually amazing to me how little the majority of the people that posted in here know about genetics so I'll just stick to the basics. The solid majority of all of the morphs we have are due to inbreeding: Tangerines, any co-dom or recessive traits. The way Tangs and hypos and pretty much any line-bred trait came about was to take the offspring that most closely resembled your goal and either breed them to eachother to produce more offspring of the such or back to the parents. All of the recessive traits were discovered by either breeding cousins back to eachother, offspring back to parents or offspring to offspring so that a homozygous form could be produced and express the trait.

As for Enigmas, don't let anyone tell you the neurological problems aren't caused by the genetics behind it. No Enigma has ever been proven to be homozygous, thus one can deduce that a homozygous form of the Enigma allele cause the offspring to no be viable and actually leads to death of the fetus in the egg.

All of the morphs are in someway not as competitively viable as the wild-type, however in captivity they are fine. Albinos can't see aswell, mack snows typically don't grow as fast etc. Listen here guys, aslong as these curly-tailed geckos survive and don't have any long term health issues, there is no reason for this trait to not be bred and developed.

 

[M&I Gecko]

I think it was stated earlier that the curly tail was due to "too much inbreeding".

 

[lillith]

Just because a genetic trait is recessive does not guarantee that it is either harmful or harmless.
I mean, there's red hair, and then there's haemophilia.

You can inbreed for any genetic trait to develop a "line"; the question is whether or not the trait is harmful.

I guess if this breeder wants to find out the hard way that his 3rd and 4th generations have gross spinal and internal organ deformities, that will be their lesson -- learned the hard way.

I would not propagate any curly tails, even though I think they are obnoxiously, adorably cute.

As the rhodesian ridgeback example given earlier - what humans like, find appealling, and believe about the creatures they breed - does not mean that those traits are in the best interest for those creatures' vigor. And a responsible breeder maintains vigor in their lines.

 

[Krow]

Very nice colors, but I agree that they should not be bred & the parents should not be bred again, although I dont see a slight curl to be that bad, but like the others in the pic just look weird. They also should only be culled to expirenced leo owners. Pretty colors though...

 

[KelliH]

All of the recessive traits were discovered by either breeding cousins back to eachother, offspring back to parents or offspring to offspring so that a homozygous form could be produced and express the trait.

As for Enigmas, don't let anyone tell you the neurological problems aren't caused by the genetics behind it. No Enigma has ever been proven to be homozygous, thus one can deduce that a homozygous form of the Enigma allele cause the offspring to no be viable and actually leads to death of the fetus in the egg.

All of the morphs are in someway not as competitively viable as the wild-type, however in captivity they are fine. Albinos can't see aswell, mack snows typically don't grow as fast etc. Listen here guys, aslong as these curly-tailed geckos survive and don't have any long term health issues, there is no reason for this trait to not be bred and developed.

We're talking apples and oranges here. Yes many of these morphs have been line bred (inbred), and IMO that's not really the issue here (although I do believe that outcrossing your projects every couple of years is a wise thing to do).

These "curly tails" are not a desirable trait. That is my opinion. I see it as no different than breeding for increased "kink tails", which is also an undesirable trait that was eventually bred out of some bloodlines (most notably the Patternless morph) by outcrossing by those of us breeders that cared enough about the morph to want to improve it rather than mass produce it.

 

[Olimpia]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I don't think it's a horrible idea. Honestly, it's what we've done with dogs and cats and they're fine. It's how anything is done in selective breeding, breed specific traits or deformities to get a certain function or look. Ss long as you breed in unrelated, normal geckos to keep the genetics "fresh," I wouldn't frown upon it. But that's just me.

 

[Olimpia]

*I tried to edit my post but I took too long.

And it's bothering me a little that everyone is so set on the idea that external deformities = internal deformities. Children who are born without fingers are not missing heart valves, or those with a cleft lip aren't missing a larynx. It is just a matter of establishing what effect this deformity has on the health of the geckos. Some deformities absolutely come linked to something else, but not all of them. It could very well be linked to some problem if inbred long enough, but I wouldn't jump to that conclusion.

Also, stop telling this person to give them away. It seems a little weird to me that that is everyone's idea of a "fix." To tell them to stop breeding is enough.

 

[thestack510]

Also, stop telling this person to give them away. It seems a little weird to me that that is everyone's idea of a "fix." To tell them to stop breeding is enough.

The main point that the majority of us are trying to drive home is that the project with the idea to foster a trait that is potentially harmful to the animals should be discontinued. If it were my project I would keep the animals myself and not give them away, that way I know for sure that they would not be bred. On the other hand I do find them beautiful with great color.

 

[LeapinLizards]

I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say I don't think it's a horrible idea. Honestly, it's what we've done with dogs and cats and they're fine. It's how anything is done in selective breeding, breed specific traits or deformities to get a certain function or look. Ss long as you breed in unrelated, normal geckos to keep the genetics "fresh," I wouldn't frown upon it. But that's just me.

You call breeding traits like smallness again and again and again, ultimately leading to unstable animals "fine"?? Look at Chihuahuas...you RARELY find one of those that is a STABLE animal. Everyone is up in arms about this because it is doing the exact OPPOSITE that every ethical breeder out there has been working years and so hard to achieve...a healthy, balanced animal that physically as well as systematically is "normal". Obviously, the curly tail is NOT a normal occurence and until fully understood should not be waved around like a "look at this cool new morph" type of deal. I am not calling this person unethical...I am simply saying they may have jumped the gun on this one.

 

[mlw50]

You call breeding traits like smallness again and again and again, ultimately leading to unstable animals "fine"?? Look at Chihuahuas...you RARELY find one of those that is a STABLE animal. Everyone is up in arms about this because it is doing the exact OPPOSITE that every ethical breeder out there has been working years and so hard to achieve...a healthy, balanced animal that physically as well as systematically is "normal". Obviously, the curly tail is NOT a normal occurence and until fully understood should not be waved around like a "look at this cool new morph" type of deal. I am not calling this person unethical...I am simply saying they may have jumped the gun on this one.

Really? So the breeders that originally came up with Tangs and Hypos and Carrot Tails and any combo morph are unethical?

 

[Nigel4less]

Really? So the breeders that originally came up with Tangs and Hypos and Carrot Tails and any combo morph are unethical?

Your comparing apples to oranges... Breeding for Color and still producing healthy animals is different then breeding intentionally for tail kinking.