Enigmas.

[T-ReXx]

Sure your going to get hatclings from regular geckos, that are going to have to be put down.I understand that, thats all part of it.Yes a dog breeder should stop breeding those animals if they show heriditary defects and in canada they do not breed dogs with hereditary defects..I am the owner of 3 purebred dogs 2 are purbred labs.The three breeders I got my dogs from guarantee no defects in their animals.Their past pedigree lineage all are defect free.Dog breeders who have dogs with hip or any other ailments do not use those dogs in breeding.They retire those dogs.The good dog breeders use nothing but top notch healthy dogs whose past lineage show no signs of hereditary defects.

You're missing my point. You cannot guarantee no health defects with any animal for the entirety of it's life span. Perfectly "top notch" labs are just as capable of developing lymphoma based cancer as any other particular lab because there is a code in their genetic past that makes them prone to that particular disease. Just as you cannot guarantee that a leopard gecko with enigma genes won't some day display signs of "engima syndrome." Not every lab gets cancer(though the MAJORITY do develop it at some point in some form) and not every enigma will exhibit the the quirks associated with enigma syndrome(in the geckos' case it's the MINORITY of individuals.) The point is that no matter what you breed, dogs or reptiles(or anything else for that matter) there is NO way you can be 100% that animal isn't going to develop a disease or disorder that is associated with their genetic code at SOME POINT in it's life time. Yes, breed only your best examples of the species. Don't breed dogs with cancer and don't breed enigmas who spin. However, that does not mean that you should stop producing ALL examples of the breed/morph because there is a possibility some of them may develop a disorder. Hell, perfectly healthy examples of all species can potentially develop health disorder with a) no known cure. and b) no definate cause. The only reason you have those "top notch" labs is because someone put in the effort at some point in history to breed animals that had hip issues and animals that didn't and figure out why they developed them and linked it to the genes and then BRED IT out of the line. Discontinuing all enigma breeding everywhere isn't going to answer the question of why it happens, and is extremely unscientific in nature.

 

[Northstar Herp]

You're missing my point. You cannot guarantee no health defects with any animal for the entirety of it's life span. Perfectly "top notch" labs are just as capable of developing lymphoma based cancer as any other particular lab because there is a code in their genetic past that makes them prone to that particular disease. Just as you cannot guarantee that a leopard gecko with enigma genes won't some day display signs of "engima syndrome." Not every lab gets cancer(though the MAJORITY do develop it at some point in some form) and not every enigma will exhibit the the quirks associated with enigma syndrome(in the geckos' case it's the MINORITY of individuals.) The point is that no matter what you breed, dogs or reptiles(or anything else for that matter) there is NO way you can be 100% that animal isn't going to develop a disease or disorder that is associated with their genetic code at SOME POINT in it's life time. Yes, breed only your best examples of the species. Don't breed dogs with cancer and don't breed enigmas who spin. However, that does not mean that you should stop producing ALL examples of the breed/morph because there is a possibility some of them may develop a disorder. Hell, perfectly healthy examples of all species can potentially develop health disorder with a) no known cure. and b) no definate cause. The only reason you have those "top notch" labs is because someone put in the effort at some point in history to breed animals that had hip issues and animals that didn't and figure out why they developed them and linked it to the genes and then BRED IT out of the line. Discontinuing all enigma breeding everywhere isn't going to answer the question of why it happens, and is extremely unscientific in nature.

+1 on that. I feel it's especially important to remember that we don't know WHY enigmas have the issues.

Roger, what I mean by "take a hard line" is being willing to put down an animal who shows signs of the syndrome. How much syndrome will it take for me? Don't know yet, I don't have any babies. I'll let you know later.

 

[roger]

You're missing my point. You cannot guarantee no health defects with any animal for the entirety of it's life span. Perfectly "top notch" labs are just as capable of developing lymphoma based cancer as any other particular lab because there is a code in their genetic past that makes them prone to that particular disease. Just as you cannot guarantee that a leopard gecko with enigma genes won't some day display signs of "engima syndrome." Not every lab gets cancer(though the MAJORITY do develop it at some point in some form) and not every enigma will exhibit the the quirks associated with enigma syndrome(in the geckos' case it's the MINORITY of individuals.) The point is that no matter what you breed, dogs or reptiles(or anything else for that matter) there is NO way you can be 100% that animal isn't going to develop a disease or disorder that is associated with their genetic code at SOME POINT in it's life time. Yes, breed only your best examples of the species. Don't breed dogs with cancer and don't breed enigmas who spin. However, that does not mean that you should stop producing ALL examples of the breed/morph because there is a possibility some of them may develop a disorder. Hell, perfectly healthy examples of all species can potentially develop health disorder with a) no known cure. and b) no definate cause. The only reason you have those "top notch" labs is because someone put in the effort at some point in history to breed animals that had hip issues and animals that didn't and figure out why they developed them and linked it to the genes and then BRED IT out of the line. Discontinuing all enigma breeding everywhere isn't going to answer the question of why it happens, and is extremely unscientific in nature.[/QU



I do get your point.Your right no dog breeder can guarantee down the road that their dogs wont get cancer or whatever ,but they can gurantee that they are using perfectly healthy animals.I'm sorry I respect your point of view but I dont agree with it.Breeders should breed their very best with out any defects period.By all means lets find a solution first and then breed the enigma.Yes some dogs down the road get cancer just like humans do, but breeders dont take a male and a female that have hip problems and breed them.Its just not done,but it's done in the enigma world..When u breed two enigmas, are u using a male and female that exhibit defects?? The issue for me is using 2 animals of any kind that are defective and then intentionally breeding them to get defective offspring, which you know your going to get ,your just crossing your fingers hoping the damage is minimal..What happened to breeding the best as someone quite happily put it.There was a debate on here a while back about breeders selling leos for $10-!5 dollars and some forum members being upset because it made them disposable.I'd like to hear from them to chime in on our discusssion.Are we not conveniently making hatchlings disposable when we breed enigmas which turn out defective hatchlings and then say Oh well i'm putting it down???? Thats not right I'm sorry. A solution on their genetics should be found first.

 

[Northstar Herp]

You're missing my point. You cannot guarantee no health defects with any animal for the entirety of it's life span. Perfectly "top notch" labs are just as capable of developing lymphoma based cancer as any other particular lab because there is a code in their genetic past that makes them prone to that particular disease. Just as you cannot guarantee that a leopard gecko with enigma genes won't some day display signs of "engima syndrome." Not every lab gets cancer(though the MAJORITY do develop it at some point in some form) and not every enigma will exhibit the the quirks associated with enigma syndrome(in the geckos' case it's the MINORITY of individuals.) The point is that no matter what you breed, dogs or reptiles(or anything else for that matter) there is NO way you can be 100% that animal isn't going to develop a disease or disorder that is associated with their genetic code at SOME POINT in it's life time. Yes, breed only your best examples of the species. Don't breed dogs with cancer and don't breed enigmas who spin. However, that does not mean that you should stop producing ALL examples of the breed/morph because there is a possibility some of them may develop a disorder. Hell, perfectly healthy examples of all species can potentially develop health disorder with a) no known cure. and b) no definate cause. The only reason you have those "top notch" labs is because someone put in the effort at some point in history to breed animals that had hip issues and animals that didn't and figure out why they developed them and linked it to the genes and then BRED IT out of the line. Discontinuing all enigma breeding everywhere isn't going to answer the question of why it happens, and is extremely unscientific in nature.[/QU



I do get your point.Your right no dog breeder can guarantee down the road that their dogs wont get cancer or whatever ,but they can gurantee that they are using perfectly healthy animals.I'm sorry I respect your point of view but I dont agree with it.Breeders should breed their very best with out any defects period.By all means lets find a solution first and then breed the enigma.Yes some dogs down the road get cancer just like humans do, but breeders dont take a male and a female that have hip problems and breed them.Its just not done,but it's done in the enigma world..When u breed two enigmas, are u using a male and female that exhibit defects?? The issue for me is using 2 animals of any kind that are defective and then intentionally breeding them to get defective offspring, which you know your going to get ,your just crossing your fingers hoping the damage is minimal..What happened to breeding the best as someone quite happily put it.

I agree with you on not breeding an animal that exhibits the syndrome. I just plain wouldn't do it. However, to throw a wrench in the works, though, I've been told several times that you just never know if one will exhibit, and wobbly parents aren't more likely to produce wobbly offspring, and fine parents can produce wobbly offspring. There's just no way to predict it. Assuming there is truth to this, what's the rule then?

 

[cassadaga]

I'd love to see an Enigma that has no symptoms at all, but I really don't think it's out there.

 

[roger]

I agree with you on not breeding an animal that exhibits the syndrome. I just plain wouldn't do it. However, to throw a wrench in the works, though, I've been told several times that you just never know if one will exhibit, and wobbly parents aren't more likely to produce wobbly offspring, and fine parents can produce wobbly offspring. There's just no way to predict it. Assuming there is truth to this, what's the rule then?

You can breed any species take your pick.If your male and female are in top condition and have no defects, 99% of the offspring will be normal with a remote chance a baby can have abnormalties,thats nature..I betcha the odds of having defective hatchlings are far more greater mating two enigmas that dont show defects.

 

[Northstar Herp]

You can breed any species take your pick.If your male and female are in top condition and have no defects, 99% of the offspring will be normal with a remote chance a baby can have abnormalties,thats nature..I betcha the odds of having defective hatchlings are far more greater mating two enigmas that dont show defects.

I've been told by more than one person that their experience has shown there is no difference. That's just what I've been told.

I still wouldn't breed even one exhibiting enigma, myself.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I'd love to see an Enigma that has no symptoms at all, but I really don't think it's out there.

I'm gonna really look close, but I've never noticed anything with mine. Just to be sure, I'm looking for wobbly legs, head tilting, circling... anything else?

 

[Khrysty]

I'm gonna really look close, but I've never noticed anything with mine. Just to be sure, I'm looking for wobbly legs, head tilting, circling... anything else?

No, I think that's it... pretty sure any other problems stem from extreme versions of those (i.e., problems hunting)

 

[T-ReXx]

I agree with you on not breeding an animal that exhibits the syndrome. I just plain wouldn't do it. However, to throw a wrench in the works, though, I've been told several times that you just never know if one will exhibit, and wobbly parents aren't more likely to produce wobbly offspring, and fine parents can produce wobbly offspring. There's just no way to predict it. Assuming there is truth to this, what's the rule then?

You are 100% correct on that one. Whether or not parents exhibit signs of the syndrome doesn't seem to make it 100% sure that you will or will not get offspring that have the syndrome. I will say however, that in my own personal experience, breeding enigmas who don't exhibit signs to animals that are completely different genetically(never do enigma X enigma, not only does it increase the chances of getting spinners but there are other factors as well, seems to increase the rate of deformities, failure to thrive, etc, so when I talk about breeding enigmas I'm always referring to the "correct" manner of Enigma X non-enigma, preferebly completely unrelated) I've had a lower percentage of enigmas from these pairings develop syndrome when compared to enigma X related non-enigma or enigma with syndrome X non-enigma. Now, I no longer breed any of my enigmas who exhibit ANY signs of the syndrome, at one point I did(before more was known about the syndrome) but that wasn't for marketable animals, just my own personal genetics experimentation with the gene.

So, long story short, the best rule I can say is this: Think carefully before you work with the enigma gene. It takes a strong stomach and very careful records. Only breed adult animals who do not exhibit the syndrome openly, and if an animal starts to show signs after being bred(and some do, sometimes the stress of breeding can trigger it to surface) immediately remove it from your breeding program. In such cases, the best thing to do in my opinion is to hold on to any offspring that are produced "accidentally" from a syndrome-exhibiting adult, and grow them out to see what happens. If they reach full size and don't show any obvious signs, at that point feel free to sell them, or breed them, or whatever. If they do show signs, those animals should either be permanent residents of the breeders retired animals collection or should be culled. My major point with all of this is that ceasing all production everywhere of the enigma gene isn't going to help find out the reasoning behind it or a solution, if there is one. Although outcrossing hasn't yet proven to remove the issue that doesn't mean it can't. I would especially like to see people crossing proven-breeder "normal" enigmas with either subspecies of pure lines or completely seperate genetic lines of macularius, specifically ones from other countries like the UK.

 

[T-ReXx]

You're missing my point. You cannot guarantee no health defects with any animal for the entirety of it's life span. Perfectly "top notch" labs are just as capable of developing lymphoma based cancer as any other particular lab because there is a code in their genetic past that makes them prone to that particular disease. Just as you cannot guarantee that a leopard gecko with enigma genes won't some day display signs of "engima syndrome." Not every lab gets cancer(though the MAJORITY do develop it at some point in some form) and not every enigma will exhibit the the quirks associated with enigma syndrome(in the geckos' case it's the MINORITY of individuals.) The point is that no matter what you breed, dogs or reptiles(or anything else for that matter) there is NO way you can be 100% that animal isn't going to develop a disease or disorder that is associated with their genetic code at SOME POINT in it's life time. Yes, breed only your best examples of the species. Don't breed dogs with cancer and don't breed enigmas who spin. However, that does not mean that you should stop producing ALL examples of the breed/morph because there is a possibility some of them may develop a disorder. Hell, perfectly healthy examples of all species can potentially develop health disorder with a) no known cure. and b) no definate cause. The only reason you have those "top notch" labs is because someone put in the effort at some point in history to breed animals that had hip issues and animals that didn't and figure out why they developed them and linked it to the genes and then BRED IT out of the line. Discontinuing all enigma breeding everywhere isn't going to answer the question of why it happens, and is extremely unscientific in nature.[/QU



I do get your point.Your right no dog breeder can guarantee down the road that their dogs wont get cancer or whatever ,but they can gurantee that they are using perfectly healthy animals.I'm sorry I respect your point of view but I dont agree with it.Breeders should breed their very best with out any defects period.By all means lets find a solution first and then breed the enigma.Yes some dogs down the road get cancer just like humans do, but breeders dont take a male and a female that have hip problems and breed them.Its just not done,but it's done in the enigma world..When u breed two enigmas, are u using a male and female that exhibit defects?? The issue for me is using 2 animals of any kind that are defective and then intentionally breeding them to get defective offspring, which you know your going to get ,your just crossing your fingers hoping the damage is minimal..What happened to breeding the best as someone quite happily put it.There was a debate on here a while back about breeders selling leos for $10-!5 dollars and some forum members being upset because it made them disposable.I'd like to hear from them to chime in on our discusssion.Are we not conveniently making hatchlings disposable when we breed enigmas which turn out defective hatchlings and then say Oh well i'm putting it down???? Thats not right I'm sorry. A solution on their genetics should be found first.

Ok, I think you may be misunderstanding my original post. I DO NOT at this time, breed any enigmas who openly exhibit the syndrome. I also don't cross enigma X enigma, this is basically proven to cause defects, not just the syndrome but others like deformities, failure to thrive, etc. At one point in time, I did do both crossings early in development of the morph and that was solely part of my experimentation with the gene. None of those offspring were sold, every single one was either kept or culled. My enigma program at the current time involves only "snydrome free" breeding animals and unrelated non-enigmas. Outcrossing and an effort to "fix" the line. Yes, I do still ocassionally get offspring from those pairings that do develop enigma issues. No, I don't breed or sell those particular offspring. However, at this point in time, ANYONE who breeds enigmas runs the chance of getting spinners. And my personal view on the issue is that as breeders we should continue to work with the gene in hopes of finding a solution. If every enigma developed the syndrome then I could see possibly ending the morph as a "lethal gene" combination. But that's not the case. The normal, beautiful engimas out there deserve just as much a chance to exist as any morph considered to be "issue free." I'm doing my part to develop the morph further, perhaps one day we will see a completely "normal" line of enigmas, until that point, what little progress I have seen(and there IS progress, in my experience outcrossing does potentially DECREASE the chances of syndrome to an extent, a very small extent at this point in my findings, but it's there) is worth continuing the work and dealing with the problems along the way.

I respect your opinion, but I just can't agree with discontinuing the production of a morph with so much potential just because there's no quick fix to the genetic "defects" associated with it. The only way anyone will ever find a solution is to work with them and test, test, test. Part of that includes breeding. A major part, in fact.

 

[roger]

You are 100% correct on that one. Whether or not parents exhibit signs of the syndrome doesn't seem to make it 100% sure that you will or will not get offspring that have the syndrome. I will say however, that in my own personal experience, breeding enigmas who don't exhibit signs to animals that are completely different genetically(never do enigma X enigma, not only does it increase the chances of getting spinners but there are other factors as well, seems to increase the rate of deformities, failure to thrive, etc, so when I talk about breeding enigmas I'm always referring to the "correct" manner of Enigma X non-enigma, preferebly completely unrelated) I've had a lower percentage of enigmas from these pairings develop syndrome when compared to enigma X related non-enigma or enigma with syndrome X non-enigma. Now, I no longer breed any of my enigmas who exhibit ANY signs of the syndrome, at one point I did(before more was known about the syndrome) but that wasn't for marketable animals, just my own personal genetics experimentation with the gene.

So, long story short, the best rule I can say is this: Think carefully before you work with the enigma gene. It takes a strong stomach and very careful records. Only breed adult animals who do not exhibit the syndrome openly, and if an animal starts to show signs after being bred(and some do, sometimes the stress of breeding can trigger it to surface) immediately remove it from your breeding program. In such cases, the best thing to do in my opinion is to hold on to any offspring that are produced "accidentally" from a syndrome-exhibiting adult, and grow them out to see what happens. If they reach full size and don't show any obvious signs, at that point feel free to sell them, or breed them, or whatever. If they do show signs, those animals should either be permanent residents of the breeders retired animals collection or should be culled. My major point with all of this is that ceasing all production everywhere of the enigma gene isn't going to help find out the reasoning behind it or a solution, if there is one. Although outcrossing hasn't yet proven to remove the issue that doesn't mean it can't. I would especially like to see people crossing proven-breeder "normal" enigmas with either subspecies of pure lines or completely seperate genetic lines of macularius, specifically ones from other countries like the UK.

Although I obviously don't agree with the breeding of enigmas I'm happy to see you are doing the responsible thing in not breeding enigmas that openly exhibit the defects.Obviously you take this whole issue seriously.I am hoping that ALL the breeders of enigmas take this whole issue as serious as u do. Good luck in your work with your enigmas and lets hope we find a solution.As long as there are these issues I will not keep enigmas.That is a personal decision.But to tell u the truth they are one of the most besutiful morphs out there.Maybe that is the danger.

 

[T-ReXx]

Although I obviously don't agree with the breeding of enigmas I'm happy to see you are doing the responsible thing in not breeding enigmas that openly exhibit the defects.Obviously you take this whole issue seriously.I am hoping that ALL the breeders of enigmas take this whole issue as serious as u do. Good luck in your work with your enigmas and lets hope we find a solution.As long as there are these issues I will not keep enigmas.That is a personal decision.But to tell u the truth they are one of the most besutiful morphs out there.Maybe that is the danger.

And I respect your decision not to work with them. Frankly, I wish more people would think more carefully before adding the gene to their breeding colonies. They beauty factor is really what I think may have sunk the enigma before a solution could be more easily found. And money, of course. So many where produced that most enigmas out there you have no idea of their genetic history, other than tracing them back to Bell. If more careful, slow experimentation with the gene had been done before the market exploded with enigmas perhaps even as of now we could all be enjoying "perfectly normal" enigma leopard geckos that never produce a spinner in their life. But all that's speculation, no definate way to know for sure, but I highly doubt things would be as out of control as they are at this point.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I never really understand all the hype about the looks of enigmas until I got one. She's still growing, but when I see she's in shed and get very excited. She looks different EVERY shed, in a very good way. It's like Christmas every shed.

I can really see how paying good money for a breeder, growing it up and watching it change would really tempt a fella to take a chance on the syndrome.

 

[roger]

I never really understand all the hype about the looks of enigmas until I got one. She's still growing, but when I see she's in shed and get very excited. She looks different EVERY shed, in a very good way. It's like Christmas every shed.

I can really see how paying good money for a breeder, growing it up and watching it change would really tempt a fella to take a chance on the syndrome.

I hear ya.I guess that is the fascination with the enigmas.They are gorgeous and each one is different..I am torn because i want one LOL,but only when their defects are outbred

 

[spykerherps]

There is no out breeding the enigma's defects. you get the enigma gene that makes them enigmas you get the syndrome thats all there is to it. Just depends on how severe it is. Stress seems to bring it out whether it be exposure to light, handling, breeding or shipping.

I have noticed quite the bell curve (no pun intended because the Bells are where the enigmas came from) over the last few years. as fair as price and production of enigmas. production sky rocketed and their prices were high put with so many being produce many of the big breeders started noticing their flaws more and more. now a few years into it knowing it can't be bred out and not wanting to produce and sell a gecko with a high potential for problem production has decrees and prices have dropped both do to the flood in the market and I believe dew to their problems.


I only own 2 enigmas one was a gift. I have been trying to breed the male I have unsuccessfully as of yet but the project is more for my own interests. I would like to see what comes out of my pairings and do not plan to produce many or release any.

 

[Northstar Herp]

Alright, I have now fed her by hand, fed her crix not by hand, taken her out for a good long while and let her walk around, and haven't noticed a thing. No head tilting, no wobbling, nothing. I'm certainly not going against those in the know who say that they all display to one degree or another, and I'm not so naive to think that I have the ONE enigma on earth who doesn't display syndrome. So my question is- exactly what am I missing? I'm sure that I could be missing something, since I don't have that much experience with leos anyway.

 

[Khrysty]

Alright, I have now fed her by hand, fed her crix not by hand, taken her out for a good long while and let her walk around, and haven't noticed a thing. No head tilting, no wobbling, nothing. I'm certainly not going against those in the know who say that they all display to one degree or another, and I'm not so naive to think that I have the ONE enigma on earth who doesn't display syndrome. So my question is- exactly what am I missing? I'm sure that I could be missing something, since I don't have that much experience with leos anyway.

I'm actually pretty confident you aren't missing anything. I think there really are some enigmas who don't display syndrome. Hence the reason for my post.

My boyfriend and I have actually theorized that if enigmas haven't displayed the symptoms by the time they reach maturity (here, given at 18 months or a year and a half), they're in the clear. We think that some develop symptoms later than others. We've heard lots of stories about "my enigma didn't display any symptoms until we bred her" and we don't think it's causation. They just seem to happen at the same time because she'd reached the point in her development where it was going to pop up. Not all human or fuzzy animal neurological problems begin from childhood--why should we assume geckos' do?

We think if we held the "good" enigmas back a year and a half and if they're still "good," they will produce "good" offspring. And the "symptom-free enigma x symptom-free enigma = enigma syndrome?" Question will be explained.

We, of course, can't be the only ones who've thought of this. Has anyone else tried this?

Pakinjak--how old is yours?

 

[Northstar Herp]

I'm actually pretty confident you aren't missing anything. I think there really are some enigmas who don't display syndrome. Hence the reason for my post.

My boyfriend and I have actually theorized that if enigmas haven't displayed the symptoms by the time they reach maturity (here, given at 18 months or a year and a half), they're in the clear. We think that some develop symptoms later than others. We've heard lots of stories about "my enigma didn't display any symptoms until we bred her" and we don't think it's causation. They just seem to happen at the same time because she'd reached the point in her development where it was going to pop up. Not all human or fuzzy animal neurological problems begin from childhood--why should we assume geckos' do?

We think if we held the "good" enigmas back a year and a half and if they're still "good," they will produce "good" offspring. And the "symptom-free enigma x symptom-free enigma = enigma syndrome?" Question will be explained.

We, of course, can't be the only ones who've thought of this. Has anyone else tried this?

Pakinjak--how old is yours?

7 months, 46 g.

 

[Khrysty]

7 months, 46 g.

I'd keep monitoring her til she's about a year and a half to two years. After that, I'm nearly positive she wouldn't suddenly develop symptoms