Enigmas.

[Northstar Herp]

i do not think it is a syndrome or a disease but rather a neurological flaw which makes these animals look and act the way they do. now if you have several thousands of dollars to have more research done maybe we can find out EXACTLY what is it but until then the enigma is truly an enigma.

That's always been my impression. I just don't think we can say that the thing that makes them wobble is the same thing that gives them their interesting look. I have neither seen or heard of anything to make me think this, except for several people saying it with no evidence.

Correlation does not necessarily imply causation.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

I was researching the different ( mostly man made) mutations in mice and one of them had an inner ear problem that caused symptoms similar to the enigma and had the similar head spotting. Many of the other mutations made note of the coat color as if it most definitely had to do with certain mutations. It seemed pretty common to have the mouse mutations display a determined predictable coat color/variation. I know the enigmas don't have inner ear problems I just used this as an example of another species that does seem to show correlation in color/look and it's associated mutations.

Here's a few links:
The way I understand it is basically they have mapped the areas for pigmentation so they make a mutation through inbreeding and if it produces a difference in coat color and has associated problems they can ID the gene responsible for those problems. “For example, the coat-color system that we study is useful because much is known about the cells and genes involved in pigmentation, and one can use it to measure very subtle changes in gene expression. That is, one can generate mutations and analyze them efficiently much the same way that people do with invertebrate model genetic systems such as flies or worms.” - http://www.hhmi.org/news/barsh2.html

http://mousemutant.jax.org/articles/mmrmutantvss.html

This has examples of dogs in there too which is pretty interesting, and it says fawn colored hooded rats are prone to becoming alcoholics. haha I didn't believe it until I read the cited work.
http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColorMutations.htm

So you are right that correlation does not mean causation but I do think that based on many examples in (man made) nature we can see that it happens pretty frequently in inbred/domesticated populations of animals and can glean from that info that this is probably the case here as well. But until someone does a genetic mapping of a leopard gecko 'coat color' we will never know.

 

[robin]

I was researching the different ( mostly man made) mutations in mice and one of them had an inner ear problem that caused symptoms similar to the enigma and had the similar head spotting. Many of the other mutations made note of the coat color as if it most definitely had to do with certain mutations. It seemed pretty common to have the mouse mutations display a determined predictable coat color/variation. I know the enigmas don't have inner ear problems I just used this as an example of another species that does seem to show correlation in color/look and it's associated mutations.

Here's a few links:
The way I understand it is basically they have mapped the areas for pigmentation so they make a mutation through inbreeding and if it produces a difference in coat color and has associated problems they can ID the gene responsible for those problems. “For example, the coat-color system that we study is useful because much is known about the cells and genes involved in pigmentation, and one can use it to measure very subtle changes in gene expression. That is, one can generate mutations and analyze them efficiently much the same way that people do with invertebrate model genetic systems such as flies or worms.” - http://www.hhmi.org/news/barsh2.html

http://mousemutant.jax.org/articles/mmrmutantvss.html

This has examples of dogs in there too which is pretty interesting, and it says fawn colored hooded rats are prone to becoming alcoholics. haha I didn't believe it until I read the cited work.
http://www.ratbehavior.org/CoatColorMutations.htm

So you are right that correlation does not mean causation but I do think that based on many examples in (man made) nature we can see that it happens pretty frequently in inbred/domesticated populations of animals and can glean from that info that this is probably the case here as well. But until someone does a genetic mapping of a leopard gecko 'coat color' we will never know.

a good example is breeding a merl to a merle (in dogs) if you get a double merle it generally results in high white dogs that are either deaf or blind. i have a double merle sheltie. she is about as deaf as they come LOL

http://www.lethalwhites.com/doublemerle.html

 

[KelliH]

I think that sometimes the Enigma behavior is so subtle that unless one is a fairly experienced leopard gecko breeder with lots of gecko care under their belts, they might not even notice any differences between Enigma and non-Enigma. No offense intended to anyone.

 

[acpart]

It is interesting to me that so far I've heard that the non-enigma offspring of an enigma pairing does not demonstrate any symptoms.

Aliza

 

[STUTFL]

a good example is breeding a merl to a merle (in dogs) if you get a double merle it generally results in high white dogs that are either deaf or blind. i have a double merle sheltie. she is about as deaf as they come LOL

http://www.lethalwhites.com/doublemerle.html

That reminds me of horses:

http://www.netpets.com/horses/healthspa/lethal.html

 

[KelliH]

It is interesting to me that so far I've heard that the non-enigma offspring of an enigma pairing does not demonstrate any symptoms.

Aliza

No, the non-Enigma siblings show none of the Enigma behavioral traits.

 

[Ehatcher]

My male enigma wigs out under bright light, but other than that... his behavior is almost exactly like robin stated as hers. The paper towel in his tub is always wadded up in some sort of way, calcium everywhere, hides moved around and he has that slow move to him. He doesnt exhibit any of the Enigma issues at all except for when he is exposed to the tube lights in my gecko room, he will react to the bright light.

One thing I am weary about, is the reports of Enigma babies that hatched from an Enigma parent can show significant Enigma issues. I wish that the enigma issues could be completely bred out, but i dont think it is possible.

Since my male doesnt spin like a top, stargaze, and he eats awesome, I put him with a female this year. Im hoping i have healthy babies, but only time will tell.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I certainly don't take any offense at what you said, Kelli. I'm pretty new, so that's why I was asking about symptoms. I've been wondering if it's so subtle that I've been missing it all along.

The messiness and slowness things that make me wonder... because my male RAPTOR always crumples his paper towel, I have a female tremper that flips over her food dish, and another male tremper that does both. My enigma does none of that. Could it be that we will always find enigma syndrome if we look for it long enough? My enigma will not eat mealworms, is that an enigma issue? Or do I have three non-enigmas that show the symptoms?

It seems circular in reasoning that: all enigmas have issues, so stuff like disturbing the paper towels or moving slowly is one of the issues... why? Because all enigmas have issues. How do we know that they all have issues? Because look, this one disturbs his paper towels.

Again, I'm still pretty new at this, but the foundational problem I have with some things said about them is that we just don't know what causes it... heck, we don't even know what "IT" is... so we certainly shouldn't say that it can't be bred out or that they all show it, and especially that things normal leos do are syndrome popping up. Until the needed study is done, or one knowledgeable person examines pretty much every enigma... I remain skeptical.

That's why I'd like to hear more personal experience with symptoms, especially slight ones.

 

[Ehatcher]

ooops... i meant to say :

One thing I am weary about, is the reports of Enigma babies that hatched from an Enigma parent ,THAT SHOWS NO OR VERY LITTLE ENIGMA ISSUES, can show significant Enigma issues. I wish that the enigma issues could be completely bred out, but i dont think it is possible.

 

[ddkgeckos]

I got my first enigma last week. hes 6.5mths old and weight 45grms. Eats very well and has so far showed no signs of the syndrome. The guy i got him from is a well respected breed here in the uk and has been keeping and breeding leos for 30 years. He assures me that my enigma has showed no signs of the syndrome. I do believe however though that all enigmas have the "issues" and believe that some show more of it for whatever reason. I really disagree with pairing enigma X enigma for me that just increases the chance of a baby showing the "issues". I think the best way to get rid of these "issues" if possible would be to get the purest normals possible and get some real pure blood into the enigma gene. Also i read a article the other day saying the "issues" could be linked with the inner ear bone having a very low calcium density. Wonder if giving them more calcium and maybe providing some uv light as it may aid calcium absorbtion.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I got my first enigma last week. hes 6.5mths old and weight 45grms. Eats very well and has so far showed no signs of the syndrome. The guy i got him from is a well respected breed here in the uk and has been keeping and breeding leos for 30 years. He assures me that my enigma has showed no signs of the syndrome. I do believe however though that all enigmas have the "issues" and believe that some show more of it for whatever reason. I really disagree with pairing enigma X enigma for me that just increases the chance of a baby showing the "issues". I think the best way to get rid of these "issues" if possible would be to get the purest normals possible and get some real pure blood into the enigma gene. Also i read a article the other day saying the "issues" could be linked with the inner ear bone having a very low calcium density. Wonder if giving them more calcium and maybe providing some uv light as it may aid calcium absorbtion.

I really and truly mean no offense by what I'm about to say, however it may sound like it...

This what I'm talking about that makes me so uncertain about popular opinion. No facts, just opinion. The more people say it, the more people come to believe it's true, and so on, and so on, forever.

What are the issues that are so slight? Why do you believe that they all have them? Who has an enigma that has these slight issues? And don't even bother bringing up things that plenty of non-enigmas do as well, cause we all know that leos are little quirky as a species.

Again, I'm not trying to offend, especially DDK, who I quoted above. I'm just not buyin' what it seems like everybody is sellin' until I see or hear some testimonials.

 

[ddkgeckos]

I believe it is naive and arrogant to think that only some enigmas have these issues. Until proven otherwise we should believe that the enigma is a "special" case and should be treated as such when breeding. As for the theory i posted i did not say this i just said i read it and it would not do any harm in increasing the calcium and maybe giving them a little uv light. But there is no point in me doing it. A top breeder should be trying all these theories so that they can eliminate certain theories out. You only have to look at a few enigmas to realize some get the "issues" more severely than others. Just because we don't see a enigma acting in this way does not mean he/she has not got the "issues" again to think that way is naive and arrogant. That is just my opinion though:main_thumbsup:

 

[Northstar Herp]

Sorry for not clarifying this before, but I wasn't talking about the inner ear or calcium thing when I mentioned opinion. I was talking about saying that they all have issues when you have nothing to back that up. I have just as much reason that they don't all have issues as anyone else has to say that they do. You're starting with the assumption that they do, and then expecting me to just believe it with nothing to back it up. I've seen a few that have it, and a few that seem not to have it. I have one that I can't say at all has ever shown me anything syndrome-ish. It only takes one to make me doubt they all have it and destroy the "they all have it" idea.

Again, I say what I've said before. We don't even know what it is, so other than plenty of people saying that they all have the syndrome, why do you think that they do?

Take the Merle doggies that Robin mentioned, they can have hearing issues. It's like me saying that they all have hearing issues, just some of them are slight. So when I whistle one time and they don't turn their head, see, there you go... I was right. But ALL dogs can and do NOT turn their heads from time to time. Someone comes in and says, "mine doesn't seem to have hearing issues", and I say, "Nope, they all have it, it's just so slight that you don't notice it." It's an unassailable theory, that one, and one I don't buy.

I still haven't heard anything that convinces me at all that the seemingly popular opinion that they all manifest syndrome is correct.

Until someone shows some results of real, hard studies, I want to hear real hard personal experience about enigmas and their syndrome.

 

[Northstar Herp]

Apologies for the merle example, it doesn't fit what Robin said about them being double merle. However, as a hypothetical situation, it still works, I think.

I still want to hear from experience with enigmas, maybe Kelli, perhaps? She has done more with them than most folks, right?

 

[ddkgeckos]

I think they all have the syndrome because i think that is the most safe way to think. I have never seen these issues in any other leos so surely the fact that it always happens in the enigma means it has something to do with that gene. All enigmas have the enigma gene so therefore have the enigma issues. This may be wrong and probably is but if we work with them on that assumption then we will all be a lot more careful when it comes to breeding them. Again this is jut my opinion and i feel this is the best way to treat something we are unsure of "think the worst" until proven otherwise.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I think they all have the syndrome because i think that is the most safe way to think. I have never seen these issues in any other leos so surely the fact that it always happens in the enigma means it has something to do with that gene. All enigmas have the enigma gene so therefore have the enigma issues. This may be wrong and probably is but if we work with them on that assumption then we will all be a lot more careful when it comes to breeding them. Again this is jut my opinion and i feel this is the best way to treat something we are unsure of "think the worst" until proven otherwise.

That's cool, I can appreciate your thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if they do indeed all have whatever it is, but to say it like fact seems a bit much. It leads others to believe that it is fact when that's debatable. I think we should let evidence lead our opinions, not opinions skew the evidence. That's why I'd like to hear some personal experience from folks that have been hatching them for a while.

DDK, the above wasn't directed personally at you, it just seems like this has turned into a one on one discussion. Sorry dude.

 

[Northstar Herp]

OK, thought of a better example:

Dalmations can have hearing issues. It's like saying they all have the issue, when all that is really clear is that only dalmations have that particular issue, not that ALL of them have it.

It IS an enigma issue, and that means that only enigmas have enigma syndrome. It doesn't require all enigmas to have the issue.

It excludes non-enigmas, not include all enigmas.

 

[ddkgeckos]

That's cool, I can appreciate your thinking. I wouldn't be surprised if they do indeed all have whatever it is, but to say it like fact seems a bit much. It leads others to believe that it is fact when that's debatable. I think we should let evidence lead our opinions, not opinions skew the evidence. That's why I'd like to hear some personal experience from folks that have been hatching them for a while.

DDK, the above wasn't directed personally at you, it just seems like this has turned into a one on one discussion. Sorry dude.

No worries i know it was not aimed at me personally. I guess im a glass half empty guy and your a glass half full. just wish the big breeders would work with trying to sort it out rather then produce dreamsicles , novas etc even though there so very cool:main_thumbsup:

 

[Northstar Herp]

Ya know, though, it's a free market world now. What's the motivation to spend all that money to do the research necessary to possibly damn the morph to futility when you could just keep on going on and only sell the good ones? Folks gotta be motivated, methinks, and they're not.