Enigmas.

[Riyo]

My girl, Tanith, that shows no symptoms is 2 years old.

The hatchlings I have from her so far (two enigmas) are both strong and showing no symptoms as of yet. It is too soon to tell, though, they are only a few days old. Here's hoping they don't develop any!

 

[Khrysty]

My girl, Tanith, that shows no symptoms is 2 years old.

The hatchlings I have from her so far (two enigmas) are both strong and showing no symptoms as of yet. It is too soon to tell, though, they are only a few days old. Here's hoping they don't develop any!

Please let me know how those turn out! This is the sort of thing I've been looking for. If her hatchlings, when they're adults, turn out to be as symptom free as she is we'll be on the right track to proving my theory.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I still want to hear from the "all enigmas show" crowd. I've talked to several folks who say this, and I would like hear more details.

 

[Northstar Herp]

BUMP? Can I do that?

 

[Khrysty]

BUMP? Can I do that?

lol feel free

 

[chazthaking2]

I own a whole lot of enigmas and I actually do have a few that even when stressed have not shown any signs of being an enigma. The only way to tell they are enigmas is by their color and eyes. I'm sure so much goes into trying to find out what it takes to break the enigma out of the symptoms but all I did was take the healthiest of the breeders and bred them together. I have only 3 enigmas that are bad about eating all the time, but they are healthy.

 

[Khrysty]

I own a whole lot of enigmas and I actually do have a few that even when stressed have not shown any signs of being an enigma. The only way to tell they are enigmas is by their color and eyes. I'm sure so much goes into trying to find out what it takes to break the enigma out of the symptoms but all I did was take the healthiest of the breeders and bred them together. I have only 3 enigmas that are bad about eating all the time, but they are healthy.

That's good news. Despite most people's experiences, I still believe the "syndrome" is not directly tied to the beautiful coloration that the enigma has. I'm likening it to a mental illness. The illness itself is genetic, but it does not hit every member of its genetic pool. Unfortunately, it can manifest itself at any time -- but we can usually count on it showing between puberty and early adulthood in humans...why not assume the same for other animals? Patience seems to be the only thing required to prove this out. If we can find the ones the syndrome misses, we can create a stronger, less worrisome morph.

 

[robin]

That's good news. Despite most people's experiences, I still believe the "syndrome" is not directly tied to the beautiful coloration that the enigma has. I'm likening it to a mental illness. The illness itself is genetic, but it does not hit every member of its genetic pool. Unfortunately, it can manifest itself at any time -- but we can usually count on it showing between puberty and early adulthood in humans...why not assume the same for other animals? Patience seems to be the only thing required to prove this out. If we can find the ones the syndrome misses, we can create a stronger, less worrisome morph.

what makes the enigma look the way it does also makes it have neurological symptoms. one comes with the other. i do think we can be responsible and breed only the best to the best and bull the bad ones and i think that this may work to an extent but i do not think it can be bred completely out. i believe people are going to have to just learn to accept enigmas for enigmas. i think some of the more severe neurological problem can be bred down but i do not think it can ever be bred all the way out.

p.s. i do not believe this to be a syndrome at all.

 

[Khrysty]

Then what of the people, like Chaz and Kevin, that claim they have enigmas that show no symptoms whatsoever? Are they just flat-out wrong?

 

[robin]

Then what of the people, like Chaz and Kevin, that claim they have enigmas that show no symptoms whatsoever? Are they just flat-out wrong?

not wrong no
but all enigmas no matter how severe or not are just kinda "slow"some exhibited no symptoms or behavior but they just may look at you different i find mine love to tear up their enclosures. i have several enigmas and the most any of them have is that when stressed they will circle slightly and wobble a bit but then go completely back to being fine. i have a four year old male enigma and he has no issues except the fact he is an enigma and has that "slow" type of thing going on. its just they are a bit different than other geckos.

 

[Khrysty]

not wrong no
but all enigmas no matter how severe or not are just kinda "slow"some exhibited no symptoms or behavior but they just may look at you different i find mine love to tear up their enclosures. i have several enigmas and the most any of them have is that when stressed they will circle slightly and wobble a bit but then go completely back to being fine. i have a four year old male enigma and he has no issues except the fact he is an enigma and has that "slow" type of thing going on. its just they are a bit different than other geckos.

Those of who who have enigmas..you wanna weigh in on this? Have you observed the same behavior on your "symptom-free" enigmas as Robin has?

 

[chazthaking2]

Not, to say I disagree with you or anything Robin but one of my enigmas is cleaner then most of my non enigma geckos, eats just fine, holds his color and weight. Maybe I was just lucky but I have had this guy for a while now and have not known him to in other words wigg out. But if you want to say eye coloration and body color is a symptom then ok, but from what ever else I have not seen it. His fathers only symptom was the way he attacked his food, with his head slightly tilted but not the son.

 

[robin]

Not, to say I disagree with you or anything Robin but one of my enigmas is cleaner then most of my non enigma geckos, eats just fine, holds his color and weight. Maybe I was just lucky but I have had this guy for a while now and have not known him to in other words wigg out. But if you want to say eye coloration and body color is a symptom then ok, but from what ever else I have not seen it. His fathers only symptom was the way he attacked his food, with his head slightly tilted but not the son.

most all of my enigmas eat fine and hold their color fine

here is rutledge.

he is four years old. he has no "symptoms". eats fine, his color is fine. he weighs nearly 70 grams.

this is a photo of him now

here he was about 3 1/2 + or - years ago at around 40 grams

he has never displayed any negative problem but he is an enigma and he is just a bit different

 

[robin]

Not, to say I disagree with you or anything Robin but one of my enigmas is cleaner then most of my non enigma geckos, eats just fine, holds his color and weight. Maybe I was just lucky but I have had this guy for a while now and have not known him to in other words wigg out. But if you want to say eye coloration and body color is a symptom then ok, but from what ever else I have not seen it. His fathers only symptom was the way he attacked his food, with his head slightly tilted but not the son.

also when you say cleaner, are you talking about the color of the gecko? say it being a hypo or normal looking?

 

[chazthaking2]

Sorry, cleaner meaning by not messing up his enclosure. That geckos almost looks like mine, nice one though, but I thought the whole conversation was about head tilting circling and such symptoms like that. Yeah the eyes and design of their color on their bodies is due to being an enigma, but the other symptoms as you said for your gecko do not exist so does that make it the enigma that so many people look for?

 

[robin]

Sorry, cleaner meaning by not messing up his enclosure. That geckos almost looks like mine, nice one though, but I thought the whole conversation was about head tilting circling and such symptoms like that. Yeah the eyes and design of their color on their bodies is due to being an enigma, but the other symptoms as you said for your gecko do not exist so does that make it the enigma that so many people look for?

he doesnt head tilt and no he does not circle he feeds great but he is still "slow". just because they do not head tilt, circle or wobble does not mean they do not have any neurological symptoms even if they are very very minimal and not one of the one mentioned prior. neurological problems is more than just circling and head tilting, or can be.

and as far as that kind of the enigma being the type to look for sure but that does not mean the animal will always will be like that. i know that stress can cause these neurological problems to arise at any time.

 

[Northstar Herp]

I've heard so many people say that the thing that makes them enigma looking is the thing that makes them wierd, but I simply don't get how anybody can say that, especially when we don't really know what it is that causes the syndrome.

Just about the only thing I learned in Psyc. class is that correlation does not imply causation.

Just because enigmas show syndrome, and enigmas look like enigmas, doesn't mean that one causes the other or that they are inextricably tied.

I would like to hear more explanation of the "what makes the enigma look the way it does also makes it have neurological symptoms."

Not to single you out or pick on you, Robin. I've heard it a lot, but still don't buy it until I hear some reasoning behind it.

 

[robin]

well i can tell you one thing. the hystopathology of an enigma compared to "normal" geckos is exactly the same. there is no difference. now that is a fact. it was on of the things kelli and steve found out from the testing and research that was done on them. i believe that they (kelli and steve) are awaiting the hard copy of the results.

hopefully kelli or steve can jump in on here and explain a bit better.

 

[Northstar Herp]

well i can tell you one thing. the hystopathology of an enigma compared to "normal" geckos is exactly the same. there is no difference. now that is a fact. it was on of the things kelli and steve found out from the testing and research that was done on them. i believe that they (kelli and steve) are awaiting the hard copy of the results.

Yeah, I've read that. That just tells us that they didn't find out what the problem is, right? So if anything, it tells us what the syndrome is NOT caused by much more than what it IS caused by. Seems to me we don't know what it is, still. Whatcha think?

 

[robin]

i do not think it is a syndrome or a disease but rather a neurological flaw which makes these animals look and act the way they do. now if you have several thousands of dollars to have more research done maybe we can find out EXACTLY what is it but until then the enigma is truly an enigma.