Incompatibilities w/ Bell (Blizzard and Murphy Patternless)

[Gregg M]

Gregg... what happened to you is exactly what I would expect to happen. when the number's are so far skewed it makes me wonder what might be going on, besides bad luck, when the number are so high. As Paul said earliler odds evently work themselves out. When did you have luck with your LVBB project?

Would you ever waste your time on a 1:200 outcome if you knew before hand that is what your outcome would be?

Not sure I get what you are saying... You agree that the odds of a blazing blizzard is 1 out of 200 or close to that but you expected me to get a LVBB the first time I bred my double het to double het???

I hatched my first LVBB last year at some point... Dont remember the exact date but it was in late 06, early 07...

Would I knowingly waste my time working on a project that only gave a 1 in 200 chance of working??? Maybe, depending on the animals/project.

To me this 1 in 200 odds thing is way off. It is also based on one or two breeders experiences. What about others who worked on double het projects and got results that either matched or beat the odds???

Because some think a double het to double het breeding will only yield 1 in 200 does this mean people working on these projects should not continue or never try it??? It would be silly if anyone bought any stock in this 1 in 200 theory because it is completely unfounded.

Also if an animal functions normally (eating, breeding, living life as expected) there would be nothing to suggest there are any issues with the animal. So what exactly would you need to test for???

 

[Ian S.]

The only difference between a blazing blizzard and a normal leo is that the blazing blizzard shows two recessive genes that as far as anyone knows, only alters/retards melanin production and outward apperance.

(cough) Blizzard = leucistic. good stuff :banana:
Leucism:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Leucism is a condition characterized by reduced pigmentation in animals. Unlike albinism, it is caused by a reduction in all types of skin pigment.

A bit of topic sry :worried2:

To me this 1 in 200 odds thing is way off.

Agreed!

 

[LadyGecko]

This has been a fantastic read
:main_thumbsup:

I really have nothing to contribute other than to thank all of the posters
I really have enjoyed reading this discussion


Sandy

 

[godzillizard]

I'm going from one breeders results, but that breeder is the one who first produced some of the morphs in question. I'll do my best to get him to post on this subject--he's never been one to keep secrets.

To me this 1 in 200 odds thing is way off. It is also based on one or two breeders experiences. What about others who worked on double het projects and got results that either matched or beat the odds???

Gregg--I was specifically talking about murphy patternless or blizzard in concert with the Tremper gene--other double hets projects will have different results, depending on the genes proximity on the chromosome. Tremper is really close to patternless and blizzard (on the chromosome) so it's harder to make them from scratch.

 

[Paco]

Not sure I get what you are saying... You agree that the odds of a blazing blizzard is 1 out of 200 or close to that but you expected me to get a LVBB the first time I bred my double het to double het???

I hatched my first LVBB last year at some point... Dont remember the exact date but it was in late 06, early 07...

Would I knowingly waste my time working on a project that only gave a 1 in 200 chance of working??? Maybe, depending on the animals/project.

To me this 1 in 200 odds thing is way off. It is also based on one or two breeders experiences. What about others who worked on double het projects and got results that either matched or beat the odds???

Because some think a double het to double het breeding will only yield 1 in 200 does this mean people working on these projects should not continue or never try it??? It would be silly if anyone bought any stock in this 1 in 200 theory because it is completely unfounded.

Also if an animal functions normally (eating, breeding, living life as expected) there would be nothing to suggest there are any issues with the animal. So what exactly would you need to test for???

Greg... I would expect the 1:16 odds most of the time. Thats what I have stated several times. Thats why people tackle the projects they do. I think there is more than bad luck when the number's start to get so high is all. There is a 99% 1:75 as Paul stated earlier for DH's. So 1:200 is still way off.

The 1:200 is off, But these numbers are coming from some of the biggest breeders in the industry who produced 100 times what the average breeder does. Who else can produce 200 babies from a single project? Not many and just a handfull of people right now.

Double het odds should be close to 1:16 not 1:200. If the odds were 1:200 I dobut that anyone would seriously undertake a project. Not worth the time or effort. IMO

I wish I would have tested out my LVBB project. I started one back in 2002 but ended up with all males and never continued the project. Got wrapped up in the Ball pythom craze.

 

[Gregg M]

Tremper is really close to patternless and blizzard (on the chromosome) so it's harder to make them from scratch.

DO i even need to ask my next question???

Ya know what, I will anyway... LOL...

How exactly do you know this to be the case and where did you get the info from??? Is that just an educated guess on your part or is it actual info that has been tested and found to be the exact case???

Also, the first BBs were Trempers...

Greg... I would expect the 1:16 odds most of the time. Thats what I have stated several times. Thats why people tackle the projects they do.

Ok, I got confused and did not know where that was going... Thanks for clearing that up for me...

The 1:200 is off, But these numbers are coming from some of the biggest breeders in the industry

Actually those are the results from one breeder...

 

[Paco]

Actually those are the results from one breeder...

well from what I have read so Far. I thought Albey's results were close to 1:200 For his BBBE project(could have read that wrong). I will ask him to clarify and see what his numbers are like. I will also ask Steve what his results have been on his BBB and BBBE projects. The 1:200 Brian is refering to was someone breeding for the Tremper BB a few years ago I am pretty sure.

 

[paulh]

I think there is more than bad luck when the number's start to get so high is all. There is a 99% 1:75 as Paul stated earlier for DH's.

Small correction. There is a 99% probability of getting AT LEAST one in 75 babies. "At least one" means the actual number is somewhere in the 1-75 range rather than only 1.

 

[godzillizard]

How exactly do you know this to be the case and where did you get the info from??? Is that just an educated guess on your part or is it actual info that has been tested and found to be the exact case???

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a platypus

 

[Baoh]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a platypus

If you have anything to substantiate the assertion previously made that consists of hard evidence, I'd be happy to consider it.

 

[Ian S.]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a platypus

Sucks when.... in this case for example, there has only been two ducks.:main_lipsrsealed:

 

[Gregg M]

If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, then it must be a platypus

:main_huh: If this is seriously your answer to my question then I rest my case. You have absolutely nothing at all to back up this claim. As far as I am concerned, your statement holds no water and you are purposely perpetuating false/bad information. Not cool.:main_thumbsdown:
Its one thing to have an opinion but it is something else to state your opinion as factual scientific information.

 

[Paco]

:main_huh: If this is seriously your answer to my question then I rest my case. You have absolutely nothing at all to back up this claim. As far as I am concerned, your statement holds no water and you are purposely perpetuating false/bad information. Not cool.:main_thumbsdown:
Its one thing to have an opinion but it is something else to state your opinion as factual scientific information.

Gregg... Come on man Lighten up a bit. I think Brian was just trying to be Funny, which sometimes can be taken the wrong way if you don't know the person well.

If you want him to seriously answer your question, you are not going to get it by insulting him when he was trying to be funny. Or demanding info from someone. asking is much nicer.

you would have been better off saying

Ha Ha Brian very funny, now if you don't mind I would like to be serious and ask if you have the specific information I asked for. If you do not then you don't have much to back up your claim. If you do I would really be interested in seeing this info and findings.

If Brian were then to come back with no info. You have every right to bash him. But if he does have this info I would not want to share it with people who were bashing me for a joke or demanding it either. JMO

This is all JMO and I want to state that.

 

[godzillizard]

I finally got to talk with Garrick, he didn't have the 'scientific' info a few of you guys seem to need, but here is what I can tell you: The Tremper locus is closer to the patternless and blizzard locus (more so than LV). It took Garrick well over 100 hatches to produce his first Tremper patternless(from double hets), and he said the odds were even worse for the Tremper blizzard...He had six 1.5 groups of double hets and only produced 4 Blazings from 2 seasons of breeding. If that doesn't tell you that the genes are close on the chromosome, you are kidding yourself. Also, the LV locus and the patternless or blizzard locus are much farther away from each other--the odds are the 1 in 16 you'd expect from a double het breeding...so LV is much farther away from the locus for patternless and the locus for blizzard than the Tremper locus is. Sorry it took me so long, I have been trying to enjoy the last bit of the summer I love Minnesota, but I really don't enjoy the winters here...

 

[KelliH]

The Tremper locus is closer to the patternless and blizzard locus (more so than LV).

That sounds like someone's opinion to me rather than a proven fact. The fact is that I produced the first Bell Blazing Blizzard. That breeding season I produced around 20 eggs from a 1.3 group that consisted of one double het male, two double het females and one 66% possible double het Bell/Blizzard. I hatched one Bell Blazing, and taking into consideration that some eggs probably went bad etc then I was damn lucky considering there you have a 1 in 16 chance to hit the jackpot with each egg laid from Double Het to Double Het breedings. That doesn't mean that one out of every 16 babies that hatch will be a Bell Blazing, it means that each egg that hatches has a 6.25% chance to be a Bell Blazing. Not the best odds.

As far as Bell Patties go, it's just a matter of time. Remember, only a 6.25% chance with each egg that hatches.

 

[Gregg M]

I finally got to talk with Garrick, he didn't have the 'scientific' info a few of you guys seem to need, but here is what I can tell you: The Tremper locus is closer to the patternless and blizzard locus (more so than LV). It took Garrick well over 100 hatches to produce his first Tremper patternless(from double hets), and he said the odds were even worse for the Tremper blizzard...He had six 1.5 groups of double hets and only produced 4 Blazings from 2 seasons of breeding. If that doesn't tell you that the genes are close on the chromosome, you are kidding yourself. Also, the LV locus and the patternless or blizzard locus are much farther away from each other--the odds are the 1 in 16 you'd expect from a double het breeding...so LV is much farther away from the locus for patternless and the locus for blizzard than the Tremper locus is.

The more and more you post the more clear it becomes that you are not thinking and you are taking the breeding results of ONE BREEDER. Garrick is a great guy and a good breeder but he is surely not the only breeder... There are many other breeders equally as good if not better who have had much better results from double het breedings.

Also, can you show me exactly where to find the info you claim to be real...

I want to know if precentages of double het breedings will be affected by the prox of the lucus.

Seriously dude, its great to have an opinion but it is just your opinion based on one breeders bad luck. Nothing substantial and no data to back your claim up... State it as it is. ITS JUST YOUR OPINION. Not a fact...

 

[godzillizard]

I know absolutely nothing about bell projects. Someone please tell me why (other than proximity on the locus) Tremper patternless or blizzard have so much trouble combining when LV and patternless or blizzard combine according to the 1 in 16 thats expected? I have a decent understanding of probability, and/or luck, but something is going on that makes it difficult for certain genes to be expressed in concert.

What exactly are your terms to qualify a "fact"? As far as I'm concerned, no human can state anything that is anything but opinion. Everything is a matter of probability/improbability, So where do you draw the line?

 

[Ian S.]

I know absolutely nothing about bell projects. Someone please tell me why (other than proximity on the locus) Tremper patternless or blizzard have so much trouble combining when LV and patternless or blizzard combine according to the 1 in 16 thats expected? I have a decent understanding of probability, and/or luck, but something is going on that makes it difficult for certain genes to be expressed in concert.

What exactly are your terms to qualify a "fact"? As far as I'm concerned, no human can state anything that is anything but opinion. Everything is a matter of probability/improbability, So where do you draw the line?

You just awnsered what your whole debate was about. It has nothing to do with the bell strain. They are compatible which in return furthers my assuption that your statements are more of a hypothesis. I will say this however, the combination has most definately proven to be more elusive than other double recessives.

 

[Gregg M]

I know absolutely nothing about bell projects. Someone please tell me why (other than proximity on the locus) Tremper patternless or blizzard have so much trouble combining when LV and patternless or blizzard combine according to the 1 in 16 thats expected? I have a decent understanding of probability, and/or luck, but something is going on that makes it difficult for certain genes to be expressed in concert.

This is where you are making the mistake... One is not any easier or harder to combine... What about people who produce TBBs without having to go through 200 hatchlings??? Ask Prehistoric pets what their odds were being that they pretty much locked down the market on TBBs... They had hundreds before they were avaiable to the general public and no one even knew it...
Just because Garrick had crap luck with the project it does not mean everyone else did... Again, the 1 in 16 odds are statistical odds.... There is nothing to say that it needs to work out that way...

What exactly are your terms to qualify a "fact"? As far as I'm concerned, no human can state anything that is anything but opinion. Everything is a matter of probability/improbability, So where do you draw the line?

Dude seriously now....
Ok, saying that Tremper and patternless and blizzard are closer to eachother than the other two strains of albino is an OPINION based on nothing...

Showing studies on this subject from a molecular level where the recessive genes are pinpointed in location would be FACTUAL info...

Based on my own experience and the experience of other breeders besides the name you keep dropping, the 1 in 200 theory is a bunch of BS.... I know that the odds are much closer to the 1 in 16...

 

[godzillizard]

Thank you Ian! I never said one thing about the Bell gene! I've been talking about the Tremper locus this whole time. I'd also like to know why the double hets produced from double homo breedings have a much higher probability of producing the double homos?--When you breed two banded albino double hets (when one parent was a double homo--Tremper and blizzard or patternless) the genes combine just fine--much closer to the usual 1 in 16 that is expected...that would help to explain why some breeders have better odds--I'd assume their 'hets' were probably produced from blazing (or TPA) bred to hets, that, or they are very lucky. But to make these 2 Tremper combos from scratch, you simply won't experience the odds you'd expect--and there are alot more genetic combos that are acting this way these days--the next few years will bring alot to light Certain genes/traits interrupt the expression of others, and other combos seem to amplify each other. I'll just keep my mouth closed from now on and let everyone figure it out for themselves. I apologize if I portrayed any of this as "scientific" fact, cause that is not at all what I was trying to do, I don't believe there are many (if any) definitives with mutation genetics