New "Breeders" who don't know what they are getting into...

T-ReXx

Uroplatus Fanatic
Messages
1,745
Location
Buffalo, NY
Ok, I just have to say something on this topic and I guess this is the best place to do it. Increasingly lately I've been getting asked questions by ppl who are either new to leopard geckos, or have only been keeping reptiles for a short period of time and decide they "need" to breed. I am continuously trying to discourage new breeder for several reasons, the top one being that there are WAY too many leopard geckos in the market as is. I'm not saying if you have experience(at least ONE YEAR) and have done your homework and want to produce a few babies that you want to keep, but there are a lot of ppl who buy animals with little to no experience who just want to breed them. My advice to anyone who has a few leos and is contemplating producing more with an idea that you will sell them is this: enjoy the animals you have, be prepared to keep ALL the babies, and please, please think CAREFULLY before you do start breeding. I personally have cut the amount of animals I will be producing in half for this season, because I want to do my part to help the market. For me this is not about money, and as much as I love seeing babies in the bator, its up to me as a breeder to consider all aspects of my hobby and react responsibly and accordingly. Here are a few things I want to say to those considering breeding:

1) You WILL NOT make money breeding leopard geckos. It's not gonna happen. The market is flooded, there are too many animals as is, and chances are whatever morph you want to try to produce it's been done already or is being done and the other guy is ahead of you.
2) Breeding is expensive. You start with 3 geckos. Those two females produce 20-40 babies. Those babies don't sell and are growing and eating. You breed those babies and THEIR babies don't sell and keep growing and eating. You use space, energy, LOTS of electricity, TONS of feeders, equipment, and most of all, time. Not to mention the cost of shipping supplies if you choose to go that route and find a market for you're animals. Responsible breeders prepare themselves to care for their animals for their life span, and that can be TWENTY years. That is not a number to take lightly. And vet bills are not cheap, you will need a vet at some point.
3) You have to make tough decisions as a breeder. You WILL at some point have to euthanize an animal. It happens.
4) You can't cut corners if you want to be a breeder. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. You need a thermostat(or more than one). You need an incubator. You need properly gut loaded feeders. You need space. You need time. If you don't have access to these things, DON'T BREED. I spend A TON of money and devote LOTS of time to my animals because I love them and want them to have the best, I have a responsibility to ensure they have OPTIMAL care before I even consider bringing more of them into this world.

Maybe this didn't need to be said, perhaps it did but it shouldn't. I just see too many ppl setting themselves and their animals up for disaster.

ok, I'm done.

-T.ReXx
 

gitrdone0420

Gotta catch 'em all!
Messages
2,664
Location
Jacksonville, Fl
I agree with you on some points, but others I dont. I wouldnt try to discourage people from breeding at all. I dont personally feel like the market is "flooded", I feel like it is growing. There are always new people that come into leopard geckos. So, breeding isnt about the money. You do need money, time, etc. to start out. That should honestly be common sense. That is true with any kind of breeding; dogs, cats. etc. I feel that if somebody, like myself who is new to breeding- I dont think I should be discouraged. I am pretty aware of everything that I am getting into and I am willing to do whatever it takes. This could be a fun exciting hobby to me, and I would feel as if I would also be able to educate people on the proper care of leos. The more "breeders" there are, I feel the more we can get the good word out on how to take care of these guys. I dont know, that is just how I feel.
 

T-ReXx

Uroplatus Fanatic
Messages
1,745
Location
Buffalo, NY
I agree with you on some points, but others I dont. I wouldnt try to discourage people from breeding at all. I dont personally feel like the market is "flooded", I feel like it is growing. There are always new people that come into leopard geckos. So, breeding isnt about the money. You do need money, time, etc. to start out. That should honestly be common sense. That is true with any kind of breeding; dogs, cats. etc. I feel that if somebody, like myself who is new to breeding- I dont think I should be discouraged. I am pretty aware of everything that I am getting into and I am willing to do whatever it takes. This could be a fun exciting hobby to me, and I would feel as if I would also be able to educate people on the proper care of leos. The more "breeders" there are, I feel the more we can get the good word out on how to take care of these guys. I dont know, that is just how I feel.

Maybe I came on a bit too strongly. I just got one too many "how do I start breeding as cheaply as possible" questions and got a little fed up. If you are starting to breed and know what you're getting into, kudos, I wish you all the luck in the world. But you are also someone who has experience just keeping leos without the difficulties associated with breeding and have an idea what you are doing. And as much as these things should be common sense, there are plenty of people who don't seem to have that. I'm not trying to discourage ALL new breeders(thought I stated that) but those who aren't prepared for it. The market is flooded, there's just no debating that. People are producing way more animals than there are homes for, the supply severely exceeds the demand. It's great when responsible gecko owners take that next step with their eyes wide open and enter a new world with their animals. What's not so great is those who buy a group of animals intending to breed them and aren't prepared for the expenses and difficulties that are associated with breeding and it's the animals that suffer.
 

herpencounter

Herpencounter.com
Messages
1,712
Location
Florida
I agree with you on some points, but others I dont. I wouldnt try to discourage people from breeding at all. I dont personally feel like the market is "flooded", I feel like it is growing. There are always new people that come into leopard geckos. So, breeding isnt about the money. You do need money, time, etc. to start out. That should honestly be common sense. That is true with any kind of breeding; dogs, cats. etc. I feel that if somebody, like myself who is new to breeding- I dont think I should be discouraged. I am pretty aware of everything that I am getting into and I am willing to do whatever it takes. This could be a fun exciting hobby to me, and I would feel as if I would also be able to educate people on the proper care of leos. The more "breeders" there are, I feel the more we can get the good word out on how to take care of these guys. I dont know, that is just how I feel.
+1



I don't like it when people say you cant make money at this... I have yet to lose money. If you putting it into $/Hours then your talking about something completely different. LOL! :main_laugh: :main_laugh: :main_laugh: I am 99% sure anybody can make money at this just don't expect it to be worth the time you put in...

The only thing I like to tell people when considering breeding is, TIME, TIME, TIME, The more you have the more time you have to find. That is the main reason I stopped breeding beardeds... If I am working in the day, its kind of hard to feed them... With leopard geckos I can feed them at night. Also the initial cost. There is a lot of things you don't take into account your first year, make sure you have extra money :main_laugh:.

J.
 

Friedbread

New Member
Messages
190
Location
Nebraska
I agree that the market IS flooded. Not just with leos, but all sorts of reptiles! Ball pythons, beardies, etc... The amount of reptiles in the market MUST be reduced by responsible breeders to save our hobby.

Yes, fewer animals means the prices will go up. But this would help reduce the number of new owners that jump into reptile ownership without realizing what type of commitment they are making. This could raise the bar for responsibility among reptile owners. Let's face it: many people are going to take caring for a $100 captive bred leo more seriously than for an $8 green anole. Think of the people who just want a "cool" pet.

I believe there is a correlation between responsible reptile ownership and the way the public views the hobby. With all of the bills coming out to potentially prevent us from even owning our reptiles, we as a community need to take a step back.

I don't want to go as far as saying all breeding should be stopped, but a shift in focus from morph-making to public education would really do a lot for the hobby. After all, only a very small minority knows the difference between a super hypo tangerine and a mack snow enigma RAPTOR, but almost everyone can appreciate the beauty of an exotic animal. ;)
 

gitrdone0420

Gotta catch 'em all!
Messages
2,664
Location
Jacksonville, Fl
Maybe I came on a bit too strongly. I just got one too many "how do I start breeding as cheaply as possible" questions and got a little fed up. If you are starting to breed and know what you're getting into, kudos, I wish you all the luck in the world. But you are also someone who has experience just keeping leos without the difficulties associated with breeding and have an idea what you are doing. And as much as these things should be common sense, there are plenty of people who don't seem to have that. I'm not trying to discourage ALL new breeders(thought I stated that) but those who aren't prepared for it. The market is flooded, there's just no debating that. People are producing way more animals than there are homes for, the supply severely exceeds the demand. It's great when responsible gecko owners take that next step with their eyes wide open and enter a new world with their animals. What's not so great is those who buy a group of animals intending to breed them and aren't prepared for the expenses and difficulties that are associated with breeding and it's the animals that suffer.

I think I just view it differently because of the way I came into this hobby. It took some convincing for me to actually see the potential. I didnt just stop at a petstore one day and say, "Oh, look at the interesting animals". My boyfriend was way into leos and I let him have the hobby to himself for a little while. Then after a few reptile shows, talking to a few breeders and joining this site, I was like... "hmmm, these little creatures are cool and pretty!". =]
I do agree with you on the points of irresponsibility of some new breeders and for that matter, pet owners. It isnt only true for reptiles, but for all animals out there! People do it with cats and dogs, etc. I mean, for ex. My boyfriends brother wont get his damn dog fixed because he wants to breed her... He thinks that someone is just going to let him use their stud and that producing, feeding, advertising, housing, taking care of the puppies isnt going to cost a dime. It is just plain ignorance and it is the same thing with most new breeders, I agree.
I think the problem is that when they look into their little leos that they just bought and do more research, they do see the successful breeders and they want to be just like them...
I am getting into breeding for completely different reasons. Maybe fun? Complete hobby... I find it interesting to see what comes out of certain pairings, playing the odds, etc.
Maybe I dont view the market as flooded because I can usually never find what I am looking for! Or it takes awhile...lol.
I will say this, the market is flooded with inexperienced new breeders! But I dont think it is with the good old hobbyist who have been doing it for years and can provide reputable stock.
Eh, thats just the way I see it.
But yes, I agree with you =] lol. Took a whole book to write my opinion though =P
 

Gregg M

Registered Member
Messages
3,055
Location
The Rotten Apple NYC
You can make money breeding reptiles... Breeding reptiles is not expensive and it is not hard to do... Any 13 year old can do it easily... It can also be done properly very cheaply...
Sure, the market is flooded... Flooded with average looking animals... There are very few animals that I see that I want to buy, but when I do find really good looking above average reptiles, I buy them no matter how much they are... I do not buy animals just for their genetics... I buy them for health, looks, and genetics last... So instead of worrying about how many animals I should or should not produce this year, I aim to produce only high quality animals, not really the hottest new combo morph... I REFINE rather than COMBINE... By doing this you create lesser in number but higher quality animals without a bunch of so-called "bi-products"...

Lets be honest here people... This is our hobby, it is not a job... If you do not want to spend lots of time and some money doing your current hobby, maybe that hobby is not for you... To me this is lots of fun, not work and there is much on my plate in terms of breeding projects... Really, whats hard about this???

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an inexperienced new breeder... We all were that inexperienced new breeder at one point... What make us any different than new people getting into it???

When I started breeding reptiles, we did not have resources like the internet... We did things on whims and on the fly... We made mistakes and learned from them... Thats how you become experienced... Even though you can learn from other peoples mistakes, the best lessons are learned by making your own mistakes...
 

gitrdone0420

Gotta catch 'em all!
Messages
2,664
Location
Jacksonville, Fl
You can make money breeding reptiles... Breeding reptiles is not expensive and it is not hard to do... Any 13 year old can do it easily... It can also be done properly very cheaply...
Sure, the market is flooded... Flooded with average looking animals... There are very few animals that I see that I want to buy, but when I do find really good looking above average reptiles, I buy them no matter how much they are... I do not buy animals just for their genetics... I buy them for health, looks, and genetics last... So instead of worrying about how many animals I should or should not produce this year, I aim to produce only high quality animals, not really the hottest new combo morph... I REFINE rather than COMBINE... By doing this you create lesser in number but higher quality animals without a bunch of so-called "bi-products"...

Lets be honest here people... This is our hobby, it is not a job... If you do not want to spend lots of time and some money doing your current hobby, maybe that hobby is not for you... To me this is lots of fun, not work and there is much on my plate in terms of breeding projects... Really, whats hard about this???

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an inexperienced new breeder... We all were that inexperienced new breeder at one point... What make us any different than new people getting into it???

When I started breeding reptiles, we did not have resources like the internet... We did things on whims and on the fly... We made mistakes and learned from them... Thats how you become experienced... Even though you can learn from other peoples mistakes, the best lessons are learned by making your own mistakes...

Well, that was very nicely said.
 

ILoveGeckos14

New Member
Messages
944
Location
Florida
You can make money breeding reptiles... Breeding reptiles is not expensive and it is not hard to do... Any 13 year old can do it easily... It can also be done properly very cheaply...
Sure, the market is flooded... Flooded with average looking animals... There are very few animals that I see that I want to buy, but when I do find really good looking above average reptiles, I buy them no matter how much they are... I do not buy animals just for their genetics... I buy them for health, looks, and genetics last... So instead of worrying about how many animals I should or should not produce this year, I aim to produce only high quality animals, not really the hottest new combo morph... I REFINE rather than COMBINE... By doing this you create lesser in number but higher quality animals without a bunch of so-called "bi-products"...

Lets be honest here people... This is our hobby, it is not a job... If you do not want to spend lots of time and some money doing your current hobby, maybe that hobby is not for you... To me this is lots of fun, not work and there is much on my plate in terms of breeding projects... Really, whats hard about this???

In my opinion, there is nothing wrong with being an inexperienced new breeder... We all were that inexperienced new breeder at one point... What make us any different than new people getting into it???

When I started breeding reptiles, we did not have resources like the internet... We did things on whims and on the fly... We made mistakes and learned from them... Thats how you become experienced... Even though you can learn from other peoples mistakes, the best lessons are learned by making your own mistakes...

AMEN!!!! + 5 million
 

Kolkri

This is my Pumpkin
Messages
120
Location
Earth
1) You WILL NOT make money breeding leopard geckos. It's not gonna happen. The market is flooded, there are too many animals as is, and chances are whatever morph you want to try to produce it's been done already or is being done and the other guy is ahead of you.
2) Breeding is expensive. You start with 3 geckos. Those two females produce 20-40 babies. Those babies don't sell and are growing and eating. You breed those babies and THEIR babies don't sell and keep growing and eating. You use space, energy, LOTS of electricity, TONS of feeders, equipment, and most of all, time. Not to mention the cost of shipping supplies if you choose to go that route and find a market for you're animals. Responsible breeders prepare themselves to care for their animals for their life span, and that can be TWENTY years. That is not a number to take lightly. And vet bills are not cheap, you will need a vet at some point.
3) You have to make tough decisions as a breeder. You WILL at some point have to euthanize an animal. It happens.
4) You can't cut corners if you want to be a breeder. Anything worth doing is worth doing right. You need a thermostat(or more than one). You need an incubator. You need properly gut loaded feeders. You need space. You need time. If you don't have access to these things, DON'T BREED. I spend A TON of money and devote LOTS of time to my animals because I love them and want them to have the best, I have a responsibility to ensure they have OPTIMAL care before I even consider bringing more of them into this world.
I would like to add that some of the breeders that are breeding now need to be more selective and maybe start culling. I know many think that is mean but better then living a sad life and dying in a painful way.
 

Tony C

Wayward Frogger
Messages
3,899
Location
Columbia, SC
I agree with Gregg that there is nothing wrong with being a new breeder, but what bugs me is seeing people who have no understanding of genetics, and no desire to learn, just throwing animals together to see what happens.
 

KelliH

New Member
Messages
6,638
Location
Fort Worth, TX
I agree with Gregg that there is nothing wrong with being a new breeder, but what bugs me is seeing people who have no understanding of genetics, and no desire to learn, just throwing animals together to see what happens.
I agree, people should research prior to owning any animal.
 

adam&nikki

New Member
Messages
416
i kinda agree and i kinda dont if your not going to produce the new cutting edge morph like a black pearl then aim for high quality animals if people hear that your animals are perfect in health and that you will provide care sheets for a newly bought animal and so forth then you are going to make money but if your just doing it outa your moms basement then no there is no money in selling leos on the contray i also breed amevias and am getting into snakes and chameleons this year and next year so if you branch off of just leos then there is a good chance that you will make money not a pile but enough to keep the feeders comming in
 

Gregg M

Registered Member
Messages
3,055
Location
The Rotten Apple NYC
but if your just doing it outa your moms basement then no there is no money in selling leos on the contray i also breed amevias and am getting into snakes and chameleons this year and next year so if you branch off of just leos then there is a good chance that you will make money not a pile but enough to keep the feeders comming in

I have to say that I have made lots of money breeding out of my moms basement back in the day...

There is money to be made in breeding leos, you just need to be smart about it and refine the morphs you like instead of jumping on the bandwagon to produce the next new craze just because you might make some money...
Producing a cutting edge morph is not for everyone... I am not big on cutting edge morphs... I just want to produce super nice looking animals...

To be honest, in my opinion, there is nothing nicer than a well refined line of Super Hypo Tangerine Carrot Tail like Hiss, JMG, TUG, and a few others produce... They took a cool existing morph and made it much nicer... The market may be flooded with SHTCTBs but the market is NOT flooded with really nice ones... The really nice ones will hold their value year after year...
 
Last edited:

herpencounter

Herpencounter.com
Messages
1,712
Location
Florida
I have to say that I have made lots of money breeding out of my moms basement back in the day...

The market my be flooded with SHTCTBs but the market is NOT flooded with really nice ones... The really nice ones will hold their value year after year...

+ A million lol.

I hear people at shows all the time wanting to make money breeding these things, but want to buy the worst examples of the morph... One lady wanted bold stripes and she bought two. Both had a very broken bold stripes, and one you wouldn't even think was a bold stripe if you didn't know what the parents where. :main_rolleyes:

J.
 

leoman777

New Member
Messages
1,199
Location
mesa,az
I would like to add that some of the breeders that are breeding now need to be more selective and maybe start culling. I know many think that is mean but better then living a sad life and dying in a painful way.


why would you cull a perfectly fine and healthy leo?
 

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