New Enigma Thread

[dprince]

Well if he is not fond of them why does he have one? no disrespect.

I may have chosen my words poorly.......I had read somewhere something (and now I can't find it, but I'm still looking!!) - I thought it was on Kingsnake chat but I can't find it there either - where Ron had made *what I took to be* a disparaging remark about enigmas. I even think it was discussed somewhere else as well........I'll keep looking for that darned thing..........

And my guess would be the same reason some others have them, Matt. Money. Ron's an incredible business man - and no fool.

For the record, I have gotten great geckos from Ron in the past, and think he's brought great strides to the leopard gecko community. That isn't in question here at all. Sorry if that wasn't more clear, either.

 

[dprince]

Not sure why you guys are jumping on Paul... He is not saying he is against the morph... He is concerned about some of the issues that may or may not come with it...
Ron Tremper never even said he was against the morph... What I heard straight from his mouth is that the morph was in it infancy and needed to be test bred... At the time he said this, he was 100% correct... That is exactly what everyone who got in on the Enigma project has done and is still doing...

I know this morph is going far and people like miamimike and Paulnj and other great breeders (sorry I did not call you by name) may have already worked out the bugs in the morph...

Should the problems with the morph be swept under the rug??? No way... The only thing that will help the issue is talking about it and working with the morph to pull out any kinks...

Jumping on people looking for honest answers is not going to cut it...

Definitely go check out the thread on the UK forum.

I agree Gregg, the issues that are arising should not be swept under the rug. From my experience, that is not at all what is occuring. I've seen many threads HERE discussing the issues and sharing results. How else are we to learn? As I've stated previously, if someone wants to do SCIENTIFIC research regarding enigmas, I would be MORE than happy to participate. If someone's just one a witch hunt.........I won't play that game. :main_thumbsdown:

 

[leo mel]

hi, this another post from paul on the uk site copied and pasted


Pass on that one Tony but if they are in denile they shouldn't be because that would point to the fact they are only thinking of their pockets instead of the welfare of the leopard gecko itself.
Personally I would recommend people cease outcrossing the enigma genes and breeding enigma to enigma but who's going to listen to me but thats just my opinion of course anyone can do what they please with their leopard geckos even if it causes more suffering for off spring.

All I can say to people out there is be careful if your considering a Enigma morph simply because of the problems that are surfacing with neurological defects this may not affect all enigma's but it seems they are all carriers of this genetic defect considering they all came from one mishap.
__________________


this is quite mild i asure you he said far worse so is it not a wonder why uk breeders are so angry, however if we try to explain some of the symtoms re. light sensitivty etc we are jumped on and told we are covering things up and that there has been a cover up all the way through right down to the creation of the morph, we feel he has already condemmed the morph and has based this on nothing but one gecko and a google on the internet, paul stated it is his mission to tell the world...... therefore is it no wonder we feel the way we do, we posted on here and asked for support but as you can see he still feels it necessary to state HIS facts to you!
please read the thread if you can all bare to do it then i'm sure you'll understand exactly whats going on!

 

[leo mel]

this is the link

http://www.reptileforums.co.uk/lizards/107161-neuro-problems-enigma-s-still.html

 

[Kotsay1414]

I may have chosen my words poorly.......I had read somewhere something (and now I can't find it, but I'm still looking!!) - I thought it was on Kingsnake chat but I can't find it there either - where Ron had made *what I took to be* a disparaging remark about enigmas. I even think it was discussed somewhere else as well........I'll keep looking for that darned thing..........

And my guess would be the same reason some others have them, Matt. Money. Ron's an incredible business man - and no fool.

For the record, I have gotten great geckos from Ron in the past, and think he's brought great strides to the leopard gecko community. That isn't in question here at all. Sorry if that wasn't more clear, either.

Here is the thread about it on GeckoForums. I could not find the transcripts on King Snake http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?t=6412&highlight=Ron+Tremper

 

[eyelids]

I had read somewhere something (and now I can't find it, but I'm still looking!!) - I thought it was on Kingsnake chat but I can't find it there either - where Ron had made *what I took to be* a disparaging remark about enigmas. I even think it was discussed somewhere else as well........I'll keep looking for that darned thing..........

This thread...
This post...

Keep in mind this was well before the awesome Tremper Enigma crosses came out...

 

[dprince]

Thanks!! I knew I wasn't just imagining it........but I clearly could have chosen my words better. Seems more like he was just envious - who wouldn't be? :main_laugh: My bad. *smacks self with wet noodle*

It's still not archived on KS.......poop. :main_no:

 

[rubym]

First off I am new to gecko breeding and I am not even sure that what I am about to ask is even possible. I know in dogs and cats and even mice there are genetic testing that can be done to prove or disprove that a condition is or isn't genetic or neurological. Is there a way to do the same in geckos? I realize that it would probably cost someone quite a bit of money but when you consider that these particular geckos go for $1000-$3000 and all the possibilities with them are just now being explored....wouldn't it be worth it? As I said I am new to all of this and just trying to learn and was just curious. I do not own an enigma as of yet but would like to at some point in time. Also it seems like alot of people that have talked about this issue have said that it is in their female enigma( just from what I have read on here) could there be some kind of link between the condition and the sex of the gecko? I have found this to be a very interesting thread and would like to learn more. Please forgive me if this was a dumb question......chalk it up to being very green in the genetics department.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Just want to say I think it's an interesting topic as well. The more we can learn about the ptoential health issue the better.
This might have already been answered, but in subsequent generations, have any of the outcrossed enigmas shown this behavior? Once enigma ? x enigma ? are crossed again, I wonder if the behavior will show back up?

 

[knz-geckos]

hi, this another post from paul on the uk site copied and pasted


Pass on that one Tony but if they are in denile they shouldn't be because that would point to the fact they are only thinking of their pockets instead of the welfare of the leopard gecko itself.
Personally I would recommend people cease outcrossing the enigma genes and breeding enigma to enigma but who's going to listen to me but thats just my opinion of course anyone can do what they please with their leopard geckos even if it causes more suffering for off spring.

All I can say to people out there is be careful if your considering a Enigma morph simply because of the problems that are surfacing with neurological defects this may not affect all enigma's but it seems they are all carriers of this genetic defect considering they all came from one mishap.
__________________


this is quite mild i asure you he said far worse so is it not a wonder why uk breeders are so angry, however if we try to explain some of the symtoms re. light sensitivty etc we are jumped on and told we are covering things up and that there has been a cover up all the way through right down to the creation of the morph, we feel he has already condemmed the morph and has based this on nothing but one gecko and a google on the internet, paul stated it is his mission to tell the world...... therefore is it no wonder we feel the way we do, we posted on here and asked for support but as you can see he still feels it necessary to state HIS facts to you!
please read the thread if you can all bare to do it then i'm sure you'll understand exactly whats going on!

Mel I am sure I have a right to post here and voice my own opinions on this matter unless I'm breaking the T.O.S. here that is. I can not see why you are bringing personal matters onto this forum when this thread is purely to discuss enigma's not my conduct on a UK forum.

 

[BabygyalSW2]

Mel I am sure I have a right to post here and voice my own opinions on this matter unless I'm breaking the T.O.S. here that is. I can not see why you are bringing personal matters onto this forum when this thread is purely to discuss enigma's not my conduct on a UK forum.

Quite right - it'd be nice if we could stop throwing personal insults about and discuss neuro ideas!

 

[arkreptiles]

ome of you may be aware that a debate regarding the potentially inheritable undesirable behaviourable issues that some have experienced with Enigma's is going on in the UK. It could be a very damaging debate for Enigma popularity although I suspect some that are 'anti-enigma' so to speak possibly have their own agenda's.

We acquired a pair of Enigma's in December last year and unfortunately the female is afflicted with balance problems and circles. In all other repects however she seems fine, feeding, shedding etc. The male we are pleased to say exhibits none of these symptoms and is a very healthy, happy and now quite large Leo!

We are certainly not sufficiently qualified to determine what the problem is. We can only observe and learn from what others have observed. What seems clear to us is that whilst this is not an issue exclusive to Enigma's (consider reported issues with the Spider Ball morph) it has high incidences in the Enigma morph and appears to occur in some offspring sired by apparently healthy parents.

We along with a couple of other Enigma breeders in the UK have therefore agreed to adhere to a voluntary code of conduct that means we will not attempt to sell any Enigma that appears to have any of these behavioural problems and will only sell healthy animals once they are 8 months old. Furthermore, we will offer a refund policy for those animals that exhibit such traits after the point of sale.

We have also alerted readers of our website to the issue and our commitment to the code of conduct. Hopefully this will go some way to appeasing any potential buyers of our Enigma's.

It is a shame that it has come to this but we feel that successive outcrossing will greatly reduce the incidences of this problem. Only time or intrusive medical research will really resolve this matter.

 

[leo mel]

i'm sorry i'm confused rainwater i have not thrown any personal insults? and i have only copied and pasted what was said and nothing to do with conduct.
I was hoping that usa breeders would add to this thread their thoughts on the the uk thread and some already have and have also copied and pasted.

 

[dprince]

Mel I am sure I have a right to post here and voice my own opinions on this matter unless I'm breaking the T.O.S. here that is. I can not see why you are bringing personal matters onto this forum when this thread is purely to discuss enigma's not my conduct on a UK forum.

You absolutely have a right to post your opinions here. It seems these ARE your opinions from your own forum......unless I am missing something? Did your feelings change - is that why you are upset that this is getting posted here? I am truly trying to understand, because I am at a loss.

And I could have completely missed it.......the personal matters? What I'm seeing (and I could be missing it!!!!) is that Mel is just posting what YOU posted about enigmas.........If there is something more, I'm happy to be enlightened. I'm only human, afterall....... :main_laugh:

 

[miamimike]

.....hey Deb.....I'll join the human club with ya!.....I too am waiting....
you are certainly more than right to give your opinions as just that...opinions....
but dont expect us not to spot past statements and discrepancies and bring them to people's attention....after all if there isnt some order to things in this forum....we are just throwing stuff at the wall and watching what sticks arent we?.....I dont think that is what this forum is built on....but....then again......it's just my opnion

 

[dprince]

.....hey Deb.....I'll join the human club with ya!.....I too am waiting....
you are certainly more than right to give your opinions as just that...opinions....
but dont expect us not to spot past statements and discrepancies and bring them to people's attention....after all if there isnt some order to things in this forum....we are just throwing stuff at the wall and watching what sticks arent we?.....I dont think that is what this forum is built on....but....then again......it's just my opinion

Yay!! Can we buy jackets?!?!?! :main_laugh:

Well stated, Mike. I like your opinion.

 

[knz-geckos]

You absolutely have a right to post your opinions here. It seems these ARE your opinions from your own forum......unless I am missing something? Did your feelings change - is that why you are upset that this is getting posted here? I am truly trying to understand, because I am at a loss.

And I could have completely missed it.......the personal matters? What I'm seeing (and I could be missing it!!!!) is that Mel is just posting what YOU posted about enigmas.........If there is something more, I'm happy to be enlightened. I'm only human, afterall....... :main_laugh:

My own opinions on this matter still stands you are all welcome to join and read the threads if you please. But Melanie and I have had disagreements in the past over certain matters personally I do not think it is right to bring personal matters into a genuine discussion.

 

[dprince]

My own opinions on this matter still stands you are all welcome to join and read the threads if you please. But Melanie and I have had disagreements in the past over certain matters personally I do not think it is right to bring personal matters into a genuine discussion.

What's happened in the past is in the past. I have not seen her bringing them here. But, as I said, I could have missed it.

 

[miamimike]

Where are these PERSONAL attacks!!!!!....pretty please with sugar on top enlighten us.......

 

[leo mel]

woah i'm now completely confused paul, i have never had any problems with you and have backed you in the past this is the first time i have disagreed with you, and so i cannot understand 1.
what is personal about copying and pasting what you have said????

I have no personal issues with you at all