Tremper New Morphs?

[miiike]

Tremper keeps flushing his own toilet on his reputation

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

Well, I'm glad that Ron made a public statement that solves the debate. What disappoints me more is the "my bad" comment. I dunno, it sounds flippant to me.

 

[fuzzylogix]

Now I'm sad it's just a line bred sse.

we've been telling you that for days...

 

[M_surinamensis]

if this is a "new Morph" why is it that it isn't made public what the building blocks are, where the tons of babies that didn't quiet make it...where are they? In my experience those who do not disclose details of a "discovery" don't do so because there is something "fishy" going on in the background.

In the herpetocultural community it's usually for marketing reasons. Keeping it secret creates a sense of mystery (maybe not in this case but...), it gets people talking about it. On internet forums and herp society meetings, show/sales and at the counter of their local herp specialty shop, herpetoculturalists gossip and talk. And gossip and talk. And gossip and talk. Put one of them on either end of a soup can connected by string and the first thing they would do with it is mention some bit of news or rumor. The word of mouth advertising potential inherent in an unknown is enormous.

Then they usually reveal it at some later point, before sales begin, which generates another wave of hubbub, rippling out and generating more attention than all the magazine ads and website banners ever created.

I do 100% agree with Semus in that the current state of breeding affairs in Leo's is starting to get out of hand and driven by other things beside research and love of the animals...$$$

Been like that for a long time now. That commercial drive has had its benefits too, it's largely responsible for the increased popularity and acceptance of reptiles as pets, of the leaps forward in knowledge and technique and it has its roots back over a decade; anyone who started keeping reptiles around or after the mid-late nineties hasn't really known anything else. There's arguably as much good as bad that has come from it.

I'm just happy to see more people who are a bit less wide eyed and star struck about it all. The frenzy doesn't reach the same pitch as it has in the past, the consumer is a bit more independent thinking. New things, new combinations, new mutations, new lines; all still possible, but we're winding down from the point where anything with a single oddly colored scale was given a label and priced at a couple thousand bucks. I like an educated consumer, it makes purchasing power mean so much more.

Rainwater came onto the scene in 98 with his strain.

I know you felt a bit burned about the tremper strain and the browning but c'mon... Tim Rainwater is an outright fraud and thief. Tremper may have made some marketing and production model decisions you don't support but whatever his sins may be, Rainwater is far worse. Rainwater killed Max incidentally, the original gecko that he purchased as part of a project, renamed after himself and sold... died young in a fish tank in Rainwater's retail storefront in Vegas. Dehydration. Nobody filled his water dish.

But it reality, this thread and Tremper's marketing ploys make me extremely sad that mine and many others hobby is being used as a money pit. It also makes me sad that it isnt the first time he had done this. Abyssinian... now this? Oh yeah anyone remember the trend setting, groundbreaking new morph called the "Firefox"?

It just make me sour and sad at the same time.

To be fair, at twenty four... you're kind of getting your hobby in his money pit. Not the other way around. "You got your chocolate in my peanut butter!" "You got your peanut butter on my chocolate!"

New... morph (maybe, what the hell do I know about it? nuffin' one way or t'other) but the marketing, the market; these are not new. These are long established, and Ron Tremper is not alone in using it to promote his animals, or in rushing to label his stock as something unique. I get that he's the most recent offender and that his high-profile nature combined with his status of expertise makes him an obvious target, but these manifestations of displeasure with him are really things that run all through the morph market. Hollering about Ron is addressing a symptom, I think people should think about the disease that caused it.

Incidentally, for what it is worth... I don't really care for morphs, but I would like to thank all the breeders and dealers who are scrupulously honest and transparent in their efforts. The ones who will happily share lineage and discovery, who will distinguish between lines, designer morphs and unique mutations, who talk to the public about supplementation and nutrition as it relates to color, who selectively breed the very best animals they can based on the goals of their own projects... and who are then willing to communicate every minute step to their potential customers... you're good people. The market could use a lot more of you, so thank you for leading the way by example.

 

[justindh1]

To me, this response shows that Ron has been a lurker of this thread and probably others like it. Hi Ron! I guess he has realized that only a few fools will believe everything he says. To believe that the "galaxy" is not related to the super snow "complex" then you have to have some sort of brain trauma.

You have to respect the man for everything he has done for leopard geckos in general but his marketing ploys have tainted his reputation for sure. He is now like a glass of milk that has been sitting out for an hour. It isn't spoiled but it sure leaves a funky taste in your mouth.

 

[Neill]

You know my 9-5 job is in wine sales (geckos are a hobby as well but I do sell them as well).

In the wine world people will to sometimes carry a higher end wine and bring that around with some lower end wines. The focus isnt even one the higher end wine. The high end helps up sell the lower ends, because people see you have some very respectable high ends so your low ends must of been very hard to find a amazing quality low end (remember we never say low end its economical) wine.

I wouldn't be surprised at all the hype right around the BABY season just to get people to flock to the website and buy the OTHER geckos.

People saying no way ill be able to afford a galaxy but nice to say i got a gecko from the guy that has those cool galaxies.

Like I always say i rather get 1 dollar from 1000 then try and get 500 bucks from 1. It will possibly take a long time to sell one galaxy (even tho nothing special), but i bet in that time hes had so much traffic to his site. Hes probably sold so many moderate priced geckos.

Anyways, iv gone, iv looked, I think there are so many breeders on this page that.

A. Have better quality.
B. Better pricing.
C. Are willing to and love to talk geckos.

 

[Quantumhigh]

I give him credit for coming clean, it can always be hard to admit your wrong. With that said we should all expect this kind of careless claim to never happen again from him. Unless he want to continue to flush any kind of rep he has left down the toilet. From the sounds of the community he is already in-route to the sewage plant, he might already be to late on reversing the BS to a clean rep.

 

[Quantumhigh]

double post please delete

 

[RampantReptiles]

So I have been emailing back and forth with "Ron Tremper" (I assume there is some sort of email group that responds to his emails and not just him.. if he does at all)

Summary of previous emails - I explained that I had Super Snow Eclipses that looked just like the Galaxy... I sent pics. Also mentioned the parents.. dad is a Mack Raptor and mom is a Mack Eclipse het Tremper and sent pics of them. I said it might be possible that the mother is a Mack Snow Abyssinian het Tremper...

Email response from Tremper:
"Nice!

I would have to see the eyes of that snow eclipse female to say it is an AB or not.

Heck, maybe I have one snow in my breeding group? It is very hard to tell some snows when they
are adults in the non albino morphs.......

Hmmmmmmmm, maybe the Galaxy is a variation of the Super Snow Eclipse???

I always consider all things, my friend...... I only want to know what is true and what is not, based
on real science..... if the Galaxy is a super snow eclipse variation, then it is still a fun morph to
work with......

I will continue with my test breedings........that is why I do tests....... to make sure I do not make any errors.
If the Galaxy x Hypo Tangerine normals do not produce any snows then we will know what is what.

We are all in this together......lets make lots of great geckos!!

Ciao,
Ron........."

Email response 2:
"My friend,

After, hearing from several other breeder friends in the USA over that last 30 days and then getting your e-mail I double checked my Galaxy breeding project components last night and I found a snow in the mix (my bad), so this impressive morph is a super snow eclipse/abyssinian variation. It is a co-dom. Lots of potential. The albino version is pure pure white from nose to tail tip with all red eyes of course.

This is why I do test breedings and gather as much information as I can before releasing something new.

I only live by the truth, too.

My best,
Ron............"

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

This is why I do test breedings and gather as much information as I can before releasing something new.

Apparently not.

 

[Thorgecko707]

Michelle, I've seen email response number two on a few places. Do you think it's a mass generated response?

I'm afraid of what the three other "new" morphs are now.

 

[richardrojas]

As I didnt get to go to the japan show, I don't know. It's only a month away so hopefully these new genetics will prove to spice up the market. Id love to find out what makes the galaxy. The white face isn't a birthmark but the yellow spot is. All galaxy have white limbs and faces with red and green influenced spots. More likely an emerine blood hypo ss eclipse white sides. So could be a combo morph like raptor, radar, ember. We won't know until it's revealed. I'm more curious on the other three. There hasn't been any info released.

Here you go the galaxy morph seeing from Europe!!!!!!! :main_thumbsup:
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...a.101777896557536.1855.100001759777046&type=1

 

[KelliH]

OK... so can we stop calling it a Galaxy now and call it what it really is... a SUPER SNOW ECLIPSE?

 

[RampantReptiles]

@ richardrojas: the link isnt working.
@ Thor
Facebook:
I double checked my Galaxy breeding project components and I found a snow in the mix (my bad), so this impressive morph is a super snow eclipse variation. It is a co-dom. Lots of potential. The albino version is pure pure white from nose to tail tip with all red eyes of course.

My email:
After, hearing from several other breeder friends in the USA over that last 30 days and then getting your e-mail I double checked my Galaxy breeding project components last night and I found a snow in the mix (my bad), so this impressive morph is a super snow eclipse/abyssinian variation. It is a co-dom. Lots of potential. The albino version is pure pure white from nose to tail tip with all red eyes of course.

Bold/Underline the variation in responses. Guess it was nice of him to personalize it for me.

 

[RampantReptiles]

OK... so can we stop calling it a Galaxy now and call it what it really is... a SUPER SNOW ECLIPSE?

I believe it may be a Super Snow Abyssinian(Eclipse variation).. but that is just me.

 

[KelliH]

An Abyssinian is just an Eclipse though... isn't it?

 

[RampantReptiles]

That's something I would like to look into further. I took pictures this morning of the eyes of my Abyssinian from Tony C and compared them to my baby eclipse eyes (unrelated hatchling not abyssinian) and there is a considerable difference. (I only have two adult eclipses with snake eyes, both from Tony C, and their eyes had the same look so it is possible the other eclipse is aby as well but maybe Im wrong!) Now this is not a fair comparison because it was a baby and baby eclipse eyes change... it has normal looking eyes (so silver/grey with similar colored veins) with some solid parts. I think Abyssinian eyes are lighter in color and have red veins.

I was planning to start a thread or maybe asking people to send me pics of their snake eyed, non albino, eclipses, and close up pics of their eyes to do a comparison. Any takers?

I will post my pics from this morning later... at work atm and do not have the pics uploaded

 

[RampantReptiles]

I am saying "I think" or sounding unsure because to me right now the Abyssinian is still in question... and something I would love to discus with others, especially those with an open mind.
That's what this forum is for!

 

[Thorgecko707]

I believe it may be a Super Snow Abyssinian(Eclipse variation).. but that is just me.

I will try to get better pix of the galaxy. Ab has hard time showing pigment. I believe it is how Ron said with ss because "morph that shall not be named" doesn't display black. Ab is mass inbred eclipse right? So it is sse or ssa, whichever you prefer. I think it isn't a million dollar animal but should be an interesting project.
@ Tony, did you breed your ab to eclipse? That should be a light speckled gecko. Then add ss to make similar.

This is why "new" morphs aren't in favor. It's all combos. I wish he would have said "new combo morph" like raptor, radar, snowglow, creamsicle ect ect.

 

[RampantReptiles]

I test bred an Aby, purchased directly from Ron Tremper, to a RAPTOR, Eclipse het Tremper, a Patternless Stripe het RAPTOR, an APTOR het Eclipse, and a Tremper Albino. The Raptor and Eclipse pairings produced 100% Eclipses, the Patternless Stripe and APTOR pairings yielded Eclipses and Patternless Stripes, and the Tremper Albino yielded Patternless Stripes and Jungles. Textbook results for what you would expect to see from an Eclipse paired to all of those, and there was no truth to the statement that Abyssinian x Tremper Albino yields Abyssinians.

The Eclipses did hatch pretty consistently with snake eyes, and several faded out to no eye pigmentation, but this is far from unheard of in non-Abyssinian line Eclipses. All of the offspring also tended to be lighter than normal, which I speculated may be a genetic form of hypomelanism. At best Abyssinians are an Eclipse line that consistently produce low to 0% snake eyes and lighter color, but they are not a distinct genetic morph and the interactions with the Tremper Albino gene stated on the info page for Abyssinians are 100% false.

He never bred Abys and snows