would you breed a leo that has a slightly curled tail?

[sauroid]

one of my young leos has a slightly curly tail tip. i want to know if that trait would be passed on, and if that trait is a fault/defect. would you use or have you used a curly tailed leo for breeding? TIA.

 

[robin]

absolutely not

 

[Khrysty]

No, I would consider that the beginning of a genetic spinal defect.

 

[Mel&Keith]

Nope!

 

[Keith N]

negative

 

[sauroid]

thanks guys. i'll just keep him as a pet then. too bad he's got the brightest TA tang color. is it considered a curly tail if when he walks his tail tip curls from side to side or is that normal movement? it isnt curled permanently.

 

[fuzzylogix]

can you show us pics? i've heard that sometimes temp fluctuations can cause malformed tails, but i wouldn't chance it. and some of my leos will raise their tails and flip it back and forth like an angry cat when they know its feeding time. i've heard that is also a sign of agression between males.

 

[sauroid]

thats how the tail moves but it happens when it is walking, unlike my other young leos (their tail is straight when moving). as i remember from reading other posts, "curled tail" is a tail that permanently stay curled to one side only whether the leo is moving or stationary.

 

[Lady Hyena]

I was wondering about that too. My Siggy's tail doesnt curl to the side when hes walking just the tip remains curled at all times. Hes a gourgous striped super snow bell albino with stunning red eyes his only defect is his little tail curl. Is it genetics? The breeder i got him from said he was the first one to have a tail like that in all his years of breeding leos, he said it was a defect from hatching early(it possible?). He's very cute and I'd love to have some mack snow bell albino engimas if i bred him to my snow eniams het bell but if he's not breeding quality i don't wanna risk his babies having curl tails...Would they get the tail too? sorry to steal your post sauroid ^^;

 

[T-ReXx]

I was wondering about that too. My Siggy's tail doesnt curl to the side when hes walking just the tip remains curled at all times. Hes a gourgous striped super snow bell albino with stunning red eyes his only defect is his little tail curl. Is it genetics? The breeder i got him from said he was the first one to have a tail like that in all his years of breeding leos, he said it was a defect from hatching early(it possible?). He's very cute and I'd love to have some mack snow bell albino engimas if i bred him to my snow eniams het bell but if he's not breeding quality i don't wanna risk his babies having curl tails...Would they get the tail too? sorry to steal your post sauroid ^^;

The only way to find out whether such a defect is genetic would be to breed and find out. But personally, I don't feel it's something that should be done unless you are willing to cull any potentially deformed hatchlings. In general, only animals that have no genetically known defects should be bred.

 

[Lady Hyena]

The only way to find out whether such a defect is genetic would be to breed and find out. But personally, I don't feel it's something that should be done unless you are willing to cull any potentially deformed hatchlings. In general, only animals that have no genetically known defects should be bred.

would you consider it to be the same gambel with breeding engimas? Since some babies randomly have the engimas spin. Its never definate but always a risk there? I think i may try to test breed it, if any do prove to carry there fathers tail then they always have a home with me, i think its cute. If it wasnt from early hatching what causes tail curls, and tail kinks? Is it random like with the engimas spin or complelty different? I think im rambling now=_=;

 

[sauroid]

no prob Lady Hyena. my leo hatched after 38 days of incubation. the thing with his tail, it doesnt stay curled all the time, only when he's walking/crawling does it flick from side to side. i might test breed him too someday and will keep all the babies.

 

[M_surinamensis]

I think i may try to test breed it, if any do prove to carry there fathers tail then they always have a home with me, i think its cute.

Please don't.

You think a curled tail tip is cute- but if there's a genetic basis for the anomaly the strength of expression may not be identical in every animal, especially not if they are line bred back into one another in an attempt to prove the trait as genetic.

He has a slight curl to the very tip of his tail.

His offspring- or their offspring (and so on), might have a curl all the way up the tail or in the spine running along the body. A curled tail- sure, kind of visually cute. A completely curled gecko that is permanently folded in on itself in a circle? Not cute at all.

If it wasnt from early hatching what causes tail curls, and tail kinks? Is it random like with the engimas spin or complelty different? I think im rambling now=_=;

There can be multiple causes for deformities and anomalies. It is not always possible to ethically determine exactly what the cause is in each individual case.

Incubation issues can cause problems- whatever portions of the animal are growing when there's an incubation SNAFU can grow incorrectly. If there's a heater malfunction in the incubator, the temperature drops by fifteen degrees (as an example, it doesn't always have to be that extreme) and stays that way for say... twelve hours before someone notices it and attempts to fix the problem, those twelve hours include time when specific tissues are developing, specific cells are busy replicating. Consequentially, they can grow wrong.

Positioning in the egg can be an issue too- the developing lizards do grow folded up inside the egg- if they develop by folding in the wrong direction, you can see kinks, bends, curls, funny shaped limbs and so on... or sometimes when that happens they will simply never hatch, dying before they're even really developed.

Suspected incubation issues should not be bred because it cannot be proven that the issue is not genetic, except through extensive breeding tests, which are the exact thing that should be avoided due to the risk.

Physical Injuries can cause problems- this one should be pretty easy to understand, if an animal is injured, it can result in deformities. A hatchling gets nipped by a cage-mate on the tip of its tail and when the tail heals, it heals sideways because it was never set or straightened. A gecko takes a face dive out of your hands and lands awkwardly on the floor, it develops a hairline fracture in its leg that the owner can't see. The animal appears fine but begins favoring the leg as it walks around, over time this alters the shape of all its legs.

Unless the physical injury has specifically done damage that affects changes that are deeper than cosmetic or has done damage to the reproductive areas- these animals are usually fine to breed, provided they are otherwise showing all indications of good health. There may be a bit more risk involved, especially for the females who will be producing the eggs- but an old injury that left the gecko missing toes isn't going to impact their breeding suitability.

It is important to note: animals only count as "old injury" if it is a known injury- if the owner knows for a definite fact that they can personally verify, that the deformity is a result of an injury. Don't ever assume a mystery deformity is an injury. Taking someone else's word that a deformity is the result of an injury is a gamble- one that should only be risked when dealing with someone of absolute honesty and with the very best of reputations. If Kelli Hammack tells you a tail kink is a result of a bite- fine, it is a result of a bite. If some guy you have never heard of who bought a table at the local herp show and showed up with five hundred leos that he is clearly reselling after buying wholesale tells you the same thing, feel free to show him your middle finger. You can tell him it is from me.

Injuries as a result of illness can cause some deformities as well. Illnesses- viral, bacterial and fungal infections, complications from physiological problems, diet or environmental conditions, parasite loads... these can change the way the animal's cells regenerate or grow and this can lead to visible deformities in some cases. Calcium deposits along the spine or joints, eyes that have a permanent cataract, bent or malformed limbs, the loss of digits or limbs as a result of infected tissue being removed, slow or malformed growth rates if the animal is sick while still developing- and so on.

Injuries that resulted from illness can be a tougher one to decide if breeding is appropriate. Where a physical injury generally has a clear and direct impact on a specific- possibly not really required for breeding- body part, illnesses can often have lingering systemic effects that aren't visible to the naked eye. The probability of an old illness having done damage that alters the reproductive health of the intended breeder animal can vary wildly and all over the place. The best bet is to bring the animal to a vet for a direct checkup and make a decision based on their analysis and recommendation. If you're unwilling or take that step or the vet is unable to offer a firm suggestion, skip the breeding.

Genetic deformities are the most dangerous to try to breed. While breeding a sick or injured animal can result in additional damage done to the parent and a batch of eggs/hatchlings that may have further complications, that is as far as it goes. Breeding a genetic anomaly propagates the deformity directly, passing it on- sometimes unseen depending on the method of transmission and variability of expression- to future generations.

The degree of expression is not always easy to map. To use a real world example that leopard gecko people will understand- breeding an enigma that looks fine to another that looks fine can sometimes result in offspring that are seriously screwed up. Breeding a curly tailed gecko might result in more geckos with a curly tail- but it might also result in geckos that are bent at a ninety degree angle in the center of their spine. Further, the exact expression of these traits is not always immediately apparent after a single generation of breeding. You may get more offspring with that curly tail you think is cute- then five or six generations later someone who bought a "pig tailed leopard gecko" from some other vendor breeds theirs and happens to be the one that produces a gecko that looks like a corkscrew from head to tail. By that time it has been outcrossed- popular new morph and all- and those corkscrew geckos are turning up in projects all over the world.

Any deformity with an unknown cause- where the answer is "Well maybe it's because of..." should be treated as genetic. It might be because of temp changes that happened with the incubator or it might be genetic. Genetic is the bigger risk, the greater danger- so unknowns get treated as though they were genetic ('cause they might be).

This should mean that deformities with an unknown cause are culled, because that is the only responsible course of action.

 

[Lady Hyena]

well I purched little Siggy from Gerrick DeMeyer i dont know who Kelli Hammack^^; but i think i should know? im pretty sure everyone knows Gerrick on this site. thank you M_surinamensis ill keep all that in mind if i seriously do consider breeding Siggy. For now it looks like he's just gonna be my curlly Q buddy for now. I guess i shouldnt be so greedy and want the snow bell engimas and worry about the health of the off spring more then my own wants. Thank you for all that info i wasnt able to find anything online about curled tails in/on leos just dropped tails and curled tailed lizards

 

[Lady Hyena]

A thought hit me tho. Why wouldnt the engimas spin be considered breeding worthy if people are producing spinners and head tilters and still breeding them? Isnt that genetic?

Any deformity with an unknown cause- where the answer is "Well maybe it's because of..." should be treated as genetic. It might be because of temp changes that happened with the incubator or it might be genetic. Genetic is the bigger risk, the greater danger- so unknowns get treated as though they were genetic ('cause they might be).

i dont mean to sound mm pushy? rude? but isnt it similar to a curled tail? Just you know its genetics? People still breed engimas with signs of the spin and there off spring show signs and there off spring do. Sure its not every time but isnt it the same?

 

[fuzzylogix]

Kelli Hammack is the owner an operator of H.I.S.S. and this is her site.

 

[Lady Hyena]

Kelli Hammack is the owner an operator of H.I.S.S. and this is her site.

i knew i read her name somewhere! well now i know! i jsut couldnt place my finger on it! thanks

 

[M_surinamensis]

A thought hit me tho. Why wouldnt the engimas spin be considered breeding worthy if people are producing spinners and head tilters and still breeding them? Isnt that genetic?
i dont mean to sound mm pushy? rude? but isnt it similar to a curled tail? Just you know its genetics? People still breed engimas with signs of the spin and there off spring show signs and there off spring do. Sure its not every time but isnt it the same?

Yeah. Which is why there are so many... debates... about the morph.

Some people- competent, educated, experienced people... will try to work, through calculated pairings, to determine the methods of transmission and expression when they find a negative trait linked up with a trait they want to reproduce (a color/pattern mutation). They will put in a lot of time, hard work and money in their efforts to produce the trait they like without the trait they do not. This isn't always possible- but it takes quite a lot of information to determine exactly what is going on in some instances.

Some people- innocent and naive people... just don't know what they are doing when it comes to genetics. They can do a great deal of harm, even though it is all accidental. It's one of the big reasons that everyone should encourage everyone else to educate themselves whenever possible, in as much depth as possible, with as many specifics and as much detail as possible. Responsible breeding is educated breeding.

Some people- unethical scumbags... just don't give a damn what they do as long as they can turn a profit. They will lie to customers about the negative condition,* they will omit information and they will breed animals with no selection process beyond "Can it produce eggs? Can I make a profit off the offspring?"

Beyond that- there are debates and questions about some issues, like what to do with those animals which are deformed. I, personally, am a proponent of an aggressive terminal culling policy- I think the responsible thing to do it so euthanize animals that are displaying deformities of an unknown origin- including all enigmas and including animals like your own where there's some question about the cause of the problem. Other people disagree- there isn't always a consensus, sometimes there is just a sort of ongoing debate.**

*it was amazing when Kahl line albino boa constrictors were starting to hit the open market, just how many of them had eye injuries because the mother sat on them or a sibling bit them. Filthy lying thieves were selling a genetic deformity to the public along with an untrue excuse as to what the problem was.

**debate when the participants respect one another. I would have a discussion with (for example) Robin about her choice to breed enigmas or a discussion with Garrick about his choice to not euthanize the slightly bent tail tip animal he sold you. It often turns into an argument or a fight if that respect isn't present.

 

[thegeckoguy23]

I would say no because then it would go down the blood line of those geckos it usually well end up gentic it happens when temps keep changing during incubation.


Jake

 

[M_surinamensis]

To be fair- most problems are not genetic.

A curled, kinked or funny shaped tail is most likely a result of either a little incubation blip or an injury.

The reason they should be treated as if they were genetic when a cause is not known is because being genetic would be a worst case scenario. It is the worst reason that it might be the way it is, so it is important to treat it as a possibility and to respond accordingly.

Otherwise it is like playing Russian Roulette- only one chamber has a bullet in it, but you still probably don't want to point it at your head and pull the trigger.