A SIM quick fix.

[robin]

i have consulted my mathematics and physics wizard who has worked with different elements and gases for the past 25 years and has a very good understanding of evaporation, thermodynamics. soils, filtration and the properties of materials. he is also a prototype machinist and designer.
he believes that 4- 1/8 inch holes will help to ventilate the sim and let the sim aspirate which will help circulate the moisture throughout the SIM. he also believes by making the space between the top of the SIM and the eggs smaller will help. air can act as an insulator if not allowed to circulate (this is simply how insulation works and this is why double pane windows work better because they have a trapped layer of air[gas] between them) it will actually cause heat to build up at the top of the SIM and will not allow moisture to be brought up from the medium at the bottom of the SIM. he believes the lack of ventilation plus the large volume of air trapped between the lid and eggs is what is causing the problems. he believes that the combination of these two things will improve the performance of a top heating incubator.

also he says if you use his idea he wants his cut of the money

 

[justindh1]

I don't own a SIM but just trying to help ask some questions to help find the answere. I have used a hova and had fantastic success with the basic method thats been used for years by others.

Why is the SIM container not getting enought moisture at the top? Isn't it a closed enviornment and shouldn't that help keep all the humidity in, that if its air tight. How is the heat drying out the air in only the top?

I have read the temperature difference in the substrate compared to the air in the container is only a couple degrees, 1 to 3 degrees actually. How does a couple of degrees cause this problem? Is there so much heat loss by the hova that the coils reach such a high temp to keep stable temps in the container?

If the air temps are less then the substrate temps and then the heat turns on, wouldn't the air heat up quicker? Would it heat up faster then the substrate by a degree or two and then stablilize? The air would cool quicker too and the process would start over.

Well don't know if any of this makes sense or is correct!

 

[Northstar Herp]

Alright, it' on now... Sorry, but I don't have to know anything about something in order to have an opinion on the matter, and this one is no different.

Robin, wouldn't the holes end up drying out the SIM because it's no longer airtight? And shouldn't natural rising and cooling move air within it, since everyone agrees that the substrate is cooler than the air temp above?

Everyone- what if you sunk the egg rack to the bottom of the SIM and made a basket for the substrate to sit on top? Please forgive me if that's stupid, but that's the first thing I would do if the problem is a top heating incubator mixed with eggs not sitting in the substrate... just flip the eggs/substrate. You could test it quickly by riggin up something to float the substrate towards the top and see if you get the condensation. It might be a little harder to access the eggs, and some changes would be in order to the SIM, but just call it the SIM- Kevin edition...

 

[KelliH]

I don't own a SIM but just trying to help ask some questions to help find the answere. I have used a hova and had fantastic success with the basic method thats been used for years by others.

Why is the SIM container not getting enought moisture at the top? Isn't it a closed enviornment and shouldn't that help keep all the humidity in, that if its air tight. How is the heat drying out the air in only the top?

I have read the temperature difference in the substrate compared to the air in the container is only a couple degrees, 1 to 3 degrees actually. How does a couple of degrees cause this problem? Is there so much heat loss by the hova that the coils reach such a high temp to keep stable temps in the container?

If the air temps are less then the substrate temps and then the heat turns on, wouldn't the air heat up quicker? Would it heat up faster then the substrate by a degree or two and then stablilize? The air would cool quicker too and the process would start over.

Well don't know if any of this makes sense or is correct!

That's exactly what I am trying to understand myself. I do not have a science degree, but I like to think I have a basic understanding of it LOL.

I wonder if the issue has something to do with the fact that leopard gecko eggs are soft shelled and small, therefore they absorb more water during incubation as opposed to larger eggs such as larger lizard species, pythons etc. and harder shelled eggs such as tortoise eggs.

Just a guess, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[robin]

Why is the SIM container not getting enought moisture at the top? Isn't it a closed enviornment and shouldn't that help keep all the humidity in, that if its air tight. How is the heat drying out the air in only the top?

the person i consulted believes that in an air tight or close to air tight container is causing the sim to act like insulator and air can not circulate. by adding a couple of vent holes it enables air to circulate to bring the moisture up from the medium which should bring the humidity levels higher, instead of the wet medium just sitting on the bottom of the sim doing nothing. (or that is how i understood it as he explained it to me).

 

[justindh1]

LOL Kelli, I think that this is really less complicated then it seems. I am trying to figure it out but with something new you don't have a lot of experience people to put their input. New products almost always go through this process unless tested hard core before release.

If it is the problems that Robins friend said it could be then why is it not affecting eggs in other incubators? I know the hova temps fluctuate a couple degrees so the temps are always changing and should allow some circulation.

What are the hatch rates of leopard gecko eggs compared to other reptile eggs in the SIM? Are they similiar enough not to factor into the problem? Just wondering and am not insinuate anything.

Are the egg membrane of a leopard gecko that much different then other reptiles that it could be a factor like Kelli has said?

 

[Northstar Herp]

OK, my second uneducated idea...

If it's possible that too much heat is being directed at the top of the SIM so that it is not getting good convection, what if something reflective was put on the inside of the lid (or the outside) to bounce the heat away from the top, that might even out the heat between the top and bottom of the SIM. Isn't it that we are talking about cooking a pizza in an oven that only broils? Shield the top so the heat is more evenly distributed throughout the pizza and maybe the cheese won't burn. That's a metaphor, you know...

 

[Omally]

I don't think it's an issue with only Hovabators, as I use a converted minifridge and my eggs dent. This is my first season breeding. Almost all of my eggs dent at first, and then swell up later. I add water to the substrate every now and then, and I'm starting to think that using only water as a "substrate" would work the best.

 

[paulnj]

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Heat cannot be transferred from a colder to a hotter body..........



try to boil water from the top with a given heat source, then try from the bottom. Which is faster heating the lid or heating the bottom of the pan?


A sealed WET terrarium gets condensation ON THE WALLS AND TOP in a 80 degree room. why?

answer those question for yourselves and you will be enlightened :main_thumbsup:

 

[Russ S]

Robin, wouldn't the holes end up drying out the SIM because it's no longer airtight? And shouldn't natural rising and cooling move air within it, since everyone agrees that the substrate is cooler than the air temp above?

I know this question was directed at Robin but I would like to try to answer it.
I don't see drying out as a problem so long as it is monitored and additional moisture is added as needed. This is true when incubating in deli cups, so why not here as well? I am the person that suggested the addition of vent holes, promarily as a way to allow excess heat to escape. I feel this would allow for air movement within the SIM and might also draw moisture up from the substrate.
I don't think it would be necessasary to have the holes with a bottom or back heated incubator. Just with top heat.
Russ

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Why not modify the Hova and add a small computer fan inside it.

 

[KelliH]

I think you can actually buy Hovas that already have fans in them, at least that used to be the case.

 

[Gregg M]

Robin,
Your theory on back heated incubators might be sound in your thinking BUT, your theory has already been squashed by the fact that some of the people who have hatched eggs in the SIM were using back heated incubators...

The heat is coming from the back but the air and substrate are being heated equally... Besides, the back heat radiates out, then up creating a stable ambient air temperature... The air is moving naturally by its own circulatory action... It is not being forced like it is in a hova...

I also understand the the idea of the SIM is not new but is certainly was never as popular as it has been since we released our product ...

I wonder if the issue has something to do with the fact that leopard gecko eggs are soft shelled and small, therefore they absorb more water during incubation as opposed to larger eggs such as larger lizard species, pythons etc. and harder shelled eggs such as tortoise eggs.

Hey Kelli,
Leopard gecko eggs are not far removed from other reptiles in the way of their permeability and moisture intake needs...
Their egg walls are no thinner than our dwarf monitor eggs...
Besides, there have been upwards of over 75 leopard geckos hatched in the SIM container... And that is underestimating the actual number...

Again, after doing some research and consulting with other breeders who use the SIM, the best theory seems to be that because the air is heated much higher than the substrate, the humidity does not have a chance to build up in the egg chamber because the air in the egg chamber is not allowed to cool... It does cool down by the cooler substrate and thats why you will see condensation under the grid... All it takes is for the substrate to be a couple of degrees cooler to hinder the condensation...

Putting holes in the SIM will not do any good as far as the Hovabator issue goes because we are still contending with the top heating element that needs to reach 105 to 110 degrees to get the lower part of the Hovabator at 84-85 degrees...

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

You take the heat from the top circulate it to the bottom it rises heats the substrate faster then the air above the substrate starts the evaporation process and you solve the issue.

 

[Gregg M]

You take the heat from the top circulate it to the bottom it rises heats the substrate faster then the air above the substrate starts the evaporation process and you solve the issue.

Ryan, this may solve the issue but I still think the top heating element will still need to get much hotter to creat the ambient air temp needed to incubate eggs...

We never tested in any Hovabator because we do not use them nor does anyone we know who helped us test before the SIMs release...

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Right Gregg and i totally agree with you. I don't believe that internal space to create hot and cool spots for the natural process of air flow. Hot air rises, cool air falls. We all agree on that so if you heat from the top you have a perpetual hot spot and you don't get even heating of air. This then in turns makes it so you don't get evaporation. If the air above the substrate is hotter then the substrate it will never work.

 

[Gregg M]

Right Gregg and i totally agree with you. I don't believe that internal space to create hot and cool spots for the natural process of air flow. Hot air rises, cool air falls. We all agree on that so if you heat from the top you have a perpetual hot spot and you don't get even heating of air. This then in turns makes it so you don't get evaporation. If the air above the substrate is hotter then the substrate it will never work.

LOL... That is exactly what I have been saying but some people are not grasping it... You explained it better than me so maybe it will be understood better...

Want a Job at Squamata concepts??? LOL

 

[paulnj]

1 40HR heat pack under the sim should prove the top/bottom heat debate

 

[Retribution Reptiles]

Well think of it like an oven. You have a broiler at the top to apply direct heat to brown. But you don't want to bake a cake using the broiler or else you will have a goopy mess at the bottom of the pan and a burnt top.

 

[robin]

Second Law of Thermodynamics

Heat cannot be transferred from a colder to a hotter body..........



try to boil water from the top with a given heat source, then try from the bottom. Which is faster heating the lid or heating the bottom of the pan?


A sealed WET terrarium gets condensation ON THE WALLS AND TOP in a 80 degree room. why?

answer those question for yourselves and you will be enlightened :main_thumbsup:

google is your friend hehe