Enigma Morph Questions?

[OhioGecko]

I've done some research and found that Enigma's came from Mark & Kim Bell, but I cannot find what morphs they came from. I'm curious if they came from an Bell Albino project or something else? I'm also looking for answers to the questions below.

1. (From above) Did the Enigmas result from a Bell Albino project?
2. What color are the eyes of the original Enigma?
3. If an Enigma has pure black eyes is it a form of an original or show traits of another morph such as Blizzard or SuperSnow?

I look forward to any answers I can get. I just don't have a grasp on how the Enigma morph started and the non-albino versions.

 

[syntheticreality]

from my understanding (which may be VERY wrong) enigmas are a random morph that was discovered. I also believe you can only get an enigma from enigma X enigma

 

[OhioGecko]

Enigma origination?

from my understanding (which may be VERY wrong) enigmas are a random morph that was discovered. I also believe you can only get an enigma from enigma X enigma

Thanks for your reply. I do understand that is was from a random morph. I was curious to know if it was a Bell albino project and if it was, (if it was?), how did they make the Tremper Enigmas by crossing albino genes. I know it is frowned upon by crossing the albino traits from Tremper, Bell, or Rainwater. Just curious to the origination, I see alot of people looking at this with no replys so it must not be too widely known :wink:. You can get an Enigma from Enigma x non-Enigma, I beleive it is 50% Enigma outcome. Here is some great info and why I've asked if they actually did come from a Bell albino and how it was crossed to a Tremper.
http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Enigma

 

[malt_geckos]

you can get an enigma from enigmaXenigma. Just not 100% enigmas

 

[OhioGecko]

Enigma Bell albino to Enigma Tremper albino

OK, I'm sure the Enigmas originated from the Bell albino project. If not somebody please correct me. If this is true how did the Tremper albino Enigmas come about without breeding the Bell albino and Tremper albino together?

 

[paulnj]

enigmas came for a leopard gecko project they do. Being as they breed trempers, bell, BB and so on, they were unaware of what project it came from and test bred to try to find the gene carrier thinking it was a recessive trait.

 

[malt_geckos]

Well the Enigma is not a form of albinism, so crossing the two strains of albinos will not give the normals double het for both albino traits...I think...

Matt

 

[Gazz]

If this is true how did the Tremper albino Enigmas come about without breeding the Bell albino and Tremper albino together?

What you do is breed enigma het bell X enigma het bell or a standed het bell.From this result on the albino front you'll get 25%bell 50% het bell 25%non albino trait(amoung all the 75%non albinos you are looking for the 25% without albino trait).So then you breed the enigmas offspring to a bell to prove them NOT to be het bell.Then next season breed the proven NON het bell enigmas to tremper.Then breed the enigma het tremper to other trempers then you'll get some tremper enigma.Then a new line off albino to work with.

 

[paulnj]

I hatched 8 eggs from my het tremper enigma X bell.... no bells yet.

 

[OhioGecko]

enigmas came for a leopard gecko project they do. Being as they breed trempers, bell, BB and so on, they were unaware of what project it came from and test bred to try to find the gene carrier thinking it was a recessive trait.

That would make sense but conflicts with
http://www.leopardgeckowiki.com/wiki/index.php?title=Enigma

"History
The Enigmas are considered a random genetic mutation. In 2006, Mark Bell produced the first Enigma when it randomly hatched out of his Bell Albino group. "

This looks like a very good reference site and I can understand if one piece of info could be incorrect.

What you are suggesting Paul makes more sense to me.

 

[Mel&Keith]

I've never heard that Enigmas popped out of his Bell groups specifically. I'm sure that line in the wiki description is just a mistake.

 

[OhioGecko]

What you do is breed enigma het bell X enigma het bell or a standed het bell.From this result on the albino front you'll get 25%bell 50% het bell 25%non albino trait(amoung all the 75%non albinos you are looking for the 25% without albino trait).So then you breed the enigmas offspring to a bell to prove them NOT to be het bell.Then next season breed the proven NON het bell enigmas to tremper.Then breed the enigma het tremper to other trempers then you'll get some tremper enigma.Then a new line off albino to work with.

Gazz this definately makes sense, everything but the timeline. These were discovered in 2006 and if we work this out it would look something like this.

breed enigma het bell X enigma het bell or a standed het bell = 2007
breed the enigmas offspring to a bell to prove them NOT to be het bell = 2008
breed the proven NON het bell enigmas to tremper =2009
breed the enigma het tremper to other trempers = 2010

Tremper Enigmas were available in 2007. Even if we breed the results 8 months after hatching the Tremper Enigmas would not have been available until late 2008 early 2009.

It would make sense if they actually were not from an Bell albino project as Paul has suggested. That way they could have been breed to either line of albinos, and of course the first being the Bell because they made the first Enigma.

Again anyone please correct if this is not right, KelliH maybe

So, my next question is what morphs of Enigmas have all black eys?

 

[OhioGecko]

.

 

[dprince]

I'm not sure where this timeline came from..........since there are plenty of bell enigmas and tremper enigmas around.........

1. (From above) Did the Enigmas result from a Bell Albino project?

For sure, the enigmas came from the Bells, but not the Bell albino line specifically. (People seem to confuse this a lot.) The Bells actually have no idea which breeding group it popped out of - it is a random mutation.

2. What color are the eyes of the original Enigma?

As far as I know, they original enigmas had the orange-y hazel eyes. It wasn't until they were crossed with albinos - which some of the original enigmas turned out to be - that the tremper and bell enigmas came out with the albino forms of these eyes. The rainwater enigma has yet to be seen, but it is coming.

3. If an Enigma has pure black eyes is it a form of an original or show traits of another morph such as Blizzard or Super Snow?

We are just starting to see these this year, and some test breeding will need to be done to determine why this occurs. Of course, the answer just might be that these are enigmas. :main_laugh:

 

[OhioGecko]

Thank you everyone for your input. The muddy water is clearing . If anyone else has any proven info on the eye traits please post.

 

[boutiquegecko]

Gazz this definately makes sense, everything but the timeline. These were discovered in 2006

Have to add that doesn't sound correct. Kelli & Steve have stated in another thread
(have known Mark for a very long time, longer than some of you have even been alive. He has personally told me for a number of years about these strange geckos that he had been hatching out. He didn't know what they were and it took me years to even see a picture of the things.) this is in the poll naming thread that is closed now.
So, what I gather is that Mark Bell hatched these strange leos out and only after a few years loaned some to Kelli. Who then started crossing them and they were introduced to the public in 2006. So that would make the wiki thing wrong in saying they were hatched out in 2006. Meaning that crosses done to create hets for tremper could have been done, and must have if the tremper enigmas were available in 2007. Mark could have even crossed them himself before lending them to Kelli to cross even further.

 

[OhioGecko]

Thanks for the insight Marlo. This is a great forum. I don't know if I could have found this info anywhere else beside Mark and Kim or Kelli. This basically solidifies not to cross a Bell Enigma with a Giant Tremper to get the tremper Enigma.

 

[godzillizard]

Definately not! You can get a proven non-het enigma male or a clean-line (proven no Bell gene) Tremper Enigma from a number of breeders on this forum...I believe Paul is producing some Tremper enigmas that are giants as we speak.

 

[paulnj]

Yes, I have hatched a giant tremper enigma from a enigma het tremper that is non het bell thus far from my test breed.

 

[Gregg M]

From what I understand the Enigmas might not have even originated in the Bells collection at all... Not saying who my source is but lets just say that the Enigmas have been in Europe since before 2006...