Enigmas.

[Khrysty]

Who here has has success with them? Has anyone bred multiple generations of enigmas without (let's say, very drastic) enigma problems? I thought I recalled, from a few conversations I've had about this, that a few people have, but I could be wrong.

 

[Neill]

Well 2 pet store rescues i have had that where enigmas died. I tried so hard to to get them right but one just kept on missing food then would give up, and other just never started eating. I myself don't think I would ever try working with this animal again. The ones i see are so pretty, but i couldn't handle all the circling and eating problems that might ensue.

I know people have had great luck and I'm not downing them keep up the amazing work! Maybe in time after seeing a few less shaky, none circling, great eaters. Ill look into it they make very pretty orange geckos!

I just had a string of bad luck so not for me.

PS they where RESCUES as well so that tells you something.

 

[Khrysty]

See, this is the "typical" enigma experience. But I know some people on the forums are working with them, and have been for a few seasons now. I want to know if there's any change, if line breeding/outcrossing/etc is creating any hopeful results with this beautiful morph.

I'd like to work with them eventually, but I won't until there are enough reassuring examples of multiple successful generations..

 

[roger]

See, this is the "typical" enigma experience. But I know some people on the forums are working with them, and have been for a few seasons now. I want to know if there's any change, if line breeding/outcrossing/etc is creating any hopeful results with this beautiful morph.

I'd like to work with them eventually, but I won't until there are enough reassuring examples of multiple successful generations..

I agree with Khrysty.Please keep an open mind.It doesnt make sense for me to intentionally breed a pair of leos that I know will exhibit defects.To me it;s just wrong.That is my opinion.I am not judging those who do.They are very beautiful animals, but I think it is wrong to knowingly breed animals that have several defects in their genes.

 

[Keith N]

Yeah I agree with you Roger. I actually broke down and purchased one to breed into some of our colony and its just pitiful to see this guy interact with its surroundings. Probably be the last one I get.

 

[T-ReXx]

It's been my experience that outcrossing doesn't do much to decrease the chances of getting an enigma with the syndrome. I've bred spinny enigmas and gotten pretty much normally acting offspring and I've bred enigmas who act normal and have gotten spinners. All in all, I'd say about 25% of the enigmas I've produced went on to develop some sort of enigma based issue. One thing I have noticed(and am currently test breeding to establish) is that certain enigma crosses are more likely to spin than others. For example, I have seen way more spinning in engima X SHTCTBs(and the variations like tangs, hypos, etc) than I have in enigma X Raptor(novas). I also think a few morphs, like super snows, for example, have certain issues that don't combine well with the enigma gene(i.e. super snows tendency to have a failure to thrive/grow quickly often adds to their potential to develop enigma syndrome when combined with the enigma gene). All that being said, I personally think until we have a definate reason behind "Enigma syndrome" it's pretty much luck-of-the-draw when working with enigmas. I plan on continuing to breed enigmas and be very selective about which animals I breed and do only outcrosses to see what happens. I believe the amazing combinations and variations you can get with the gene are worth the attempt to "fix" them, if that's even possible.

 

[Tony C]

I remember Kelli posting in a few threads that Enigmas were found to have no physical abnormalities in the brain, and that the Enigma gene appears to be linked to both the color and neurological defects, meaning that it can't be bred out. I only have one Enigma, who shows no sign of the "syndrome". The only unusual thing I have seen from her was slightly shaky legs after breeding, but who hasn't had that happen...

 

[Riyo]

This is my first season breeding and I just hatched my first gecko (which happened to be an enigma) but I will tell you the experiences I have had with them.

I presently own two, though I had four. Out of the four, one had to be euthanized due to an extreme case of the symptom. One (the mother of the baby that hatched today) shows NO enigma symptoms and acts completely normal. The other two are males, one of which I sold. They both only exhibit a teeny bit of the syndrome when stressed. (Head tilt)

So.. 3/4 I've had a great experience with. I hope that the babies I produce are healthy and are symptom free but there is no guarantee of that, unfortunately. It is a quirk of the morph much like the wobble in Spider Ball Pythons (it too is a dominant gene..).

 

[roger]

It's been my experience that outcrossing doesn't do much to decrease the chances of getting an enigma with the syndrome. I've bred spinny enigmas and gotten pretty much normally acting offspring and I've bred enigmas who act normal and have gotten spinners. All in all, I'd say about 25% of the enigmas I've produced went on to develop some sort of enigma based issue. One thing I have noticed(and am currently test breeding to establish) is that certain enigma crosses are more likely to spin than others. For example, I have seen way more spinning in engima X SHTCTBs(and the variations like tangs, hypos, etc) than I have in enigma X Raptor(novas). I also think a few morphs, like super snows, for example, have certain issues that don't combine well with the enigma gene(i.e. super snows tendency to have a failure to thrive/grow quickly often adds to their potential to develop enigma syndrome when combined with the enigma gene). All that being said, I personally think until we have a definate reason behind "Enigma syndrome" it's pretty much luck-of-the-draw when working with enigmas. I plan on continuing to breed enigmas and be very selective about which animals I breed and do only outcrosses to see what happens. I believe the amazing combinations and variations you can get with the gene are worth the attempt to "fix" them, if that's even possible.

lets take this a step further and put aside the debate about breeding animals with defects.Do breeders tell their customers that the hatchlings they are buying will show mild medium or severe problems, I bet you most dont tell their customers because they wouldnt sell one hatchling..Man i dont know.I cant see myself breeding enigmas first off because my heart would ache seeing an animal in distress.And secondly I couldnt see myself selling a hatchling to someone and then telling them there could be some physical defects.That just does not make sense to me.Are they morally responsible to tell their customers that there could be Physical abnormalities in there hatchlings??

 

[T-ReXx]

lets take this a step further and put aside the debate about breeding animals with defects.Do breeders tell their customers that the hatchlings they are buying will show mild medium or severe problems, I bet you most dont tell their customers because they wouldnt sell one hatchling..Man i dont know.I cant see myself breeding enigmas first off because my heart would ache seeing an animal in distress.And secondly I couldnt see myself selling a hatchling to someone and then telling them there could be some physical defects.That just does not make sense to me.Are they morally responsible to tell their customers that there could be Physical abnormalities in there hatchlings??

In a word: yes. I think part of being a responsible breeder is making sure potential owners know EVERYTHING about the care and habits of the animals they are buying. So, yes, to me this means if you are buying an enigma from me, you need to be aware that the animal could potentially develop enigma "syndrome." To be honest, I don't think engimas belong in the hands of the "average" hobbyist. For one thing, people who are new to the leopard gecko world usually don't know what they're getting into with enigmas. And secondly, if you're going to breed enigmas(and lets face it, more often than not newer leopard gecko owners start entertaining the idea of breeding) you need to be prepared to be responsible about it. This means in a word: culling. Aggressive culling. Personally, I don't sell hatchlings. Every gecko I sell is at least 15 grams, more so most of the time. Any enigmas who exhibit enigma syndrome before that size are culled. Not "adopted out" not "kept as pets-only," culled. And anyone who buys an enigma from me is going to be fully informed that the animal may very well develop issues later in life. With this gene, just as with any other animal you are breeding that may have genetically linked "defects" (spider balls, English Lop Rabbits, MANY breeds of dog) aggressive regulation of stock is what is required. And if a buyer is put off by the engima syndrome possibility, they can purchase another, enigma-free morph or shop elsewhere. I'm in this because I enjoy the hobby, not to make money. And I think a big reason enigmas are as messed up as they are can be traced to the insane amount of animals produced without regulation in the first few years after the gene surfaced simply to make money. So, in a nutshell, yes, as a responsible animal breeder, you are morally responsible to be sure you're customers know the whole story.

 

[Missinasworld]

I can't say that I have been working with enigmas very long, but out of the 6 I own, only 2 show any real signs of the enigma "syndrome". The male is worse by far. He is only good for being a pet. I tried to place him in a new home but I'm so terrified someone will use him for breeding that I have rejected every one who has asked to adopt him because they also own female leopard geckos and I just can't trust someone not to breed this very pretty mac snow enigma with full black eyes. He is a great pet though and my best friend has fallen in love with him, he calls him Counter Clockwise Gecko lol because he spins, head tilts, makes random weird croaking sounds...
His half sister (5 of my enigmas came from the same breeder and all share the same sire), has less issues. I named her Speckle and she only tilts her head and "gazes" a little. The rest of my enigmas seem fine.
I just hatched out my first set of enimga babies to. 1 is a tremper and the other is not. The tremper enigma baby is a little odd because she doesn't eat nearly as much as her sister so we will see what happens there.

Either of the breeders I got mine from warned me, but I knew about the issues because I looked it up on line and went out of my way to find them. As a breeder myself, maybe I don't sell many geckos because I'm to honest? I also try to keep my geckos until they are over 20g if not more, that way I know a little more about them before trying to place them.

Missina
http://missina.cjb.net/Geckos/thegeckoroom.html

 

[acpart]

I have 1 enigma female who is occasionally a bit shaky but usually acts normal. I will breed her for the first time this season. My brother is a vet and I plan to bring any babies with a significant syndrome to him for culling. I also plan to explain to any potential customers exactly what it means to have an enigma and what may happen. Most likely I will have a written explanation that will be available for people to read and also a copy for them to take with them if they still want to have an enigma because often people don't take in what they are told. If the season doesn't go well with her, she will join my "retired girls" club.

Aliza

 

[herf]

I am new to leos and reading about Enigma's just saddens me.I have not gotten a leo just cause i want to know everything about them before i get 1.Plus the morphs i like tend to me a little pricey...But i have never seen the term culling what is that?

 

[herf]

nvm I found what it means!!

 

[roger]

In a word: yes. I think part of being a responsible breeder is making sure potential owners know EVERYTHING about the care and habits of the animals they are buying. So, yes, to me this means if you are buying an enigma from me, you need to be aware that the animal could potentially develop enigma "syndrome." To be honest, I don't think engimas belong in the hands of the "average" hobbyist. For one thing, people who are new to the leopard gecko world usually don't know what they're getting into with enigmas. And secondly, if you're going to breed enigmas(and lets face it, more often than not newer leopard gecko owners start entertaining the idea of breeding) you need to be prepared to be responsible about it. This means in a word: culling. Aggressive culling. Personally, I don't sell hatchlings. Every gecko I sell is at least 15 grams, more so most of the time. Any enigmas who exhibit enigma syndrome before that size are culled. Not "adopted out" not "kept as pets-only," culled. And anyone who buys an enigma from me is going to be fully informed that the animal may very well develop issues later in life. With this gene, just as with any other animal you are breeding that may have genetically linked "defects" (spider balls, English Lop Rabbits, MANY breeds of dog) aggressive regulation of stock is what is required. And if a buyer is put off by the engima syndrome possibility, they can purchase another, enigma-free morph or shop elsewhere. I'm in this because I enjoy the hobby, not to make money. And I think a big reason enigmas are as messed up as they are can be traced to the insane amount of animals produced without regulation in the first few years after the gene surfaced simply to make money. So, in a nutshell, yes, as a responsible animal breeder, you are morally responsible to be sure you're customers know the whole story.

So what some are in fact doing is intentionally breeding enigmas who we know full well may have medium to xtreme physical defects to then basically cull them.Why bring something into the world and then cull ? Would it not make more sense to stop breeding the enigams until someone finds a solution to the problem instead of continuing to breed enigmas.I certainly wouldnt breed dogs knowing there will be defects or cats!

 

[Northstar Herp]

I have an enigma that I have never noticed any issues with, and i have to chase her down every time I pick her up, which is daily.

When she hits the right size, I'm gonna pair her with one of my males, and I plan to take a pretty hard line on the enigma issues. Of course, plans change, so we'll see how it goes when the time comes.

 

[roger]

I have an enigma that I have never noticed any issues with, and i have to chase her down every time I pick her up, which is daily.

When she hits the right size, I'm gonna pair her with one of my males, and I plan to take a pretty hard line on the enigma issues. Of course, plans change, so we'll see how it goes when the time comes.

What do u mean by "taking a hard line"

 

[T-ReXx]

So what some are in fact doing is intentionally breeding enigmas who we know full well may have medium to xtreme physical defects to then basically cull them.Why bring something into the world and then cull ? Would it not make more sense to stop breeding the enigams until someone finds a solution to the problem instead of continuing to breed enigmas.I certainly wouldnt breed dogs knowing there will be defects or cats!

Because part of the process of finding a "solution" to the enigma issue is breeding them. Even if you produce non-enigma geckos you are still eventually going to get babies that need to be culled. The fact is, with any animal, you don't know for sure there will be defects. Some enigmas grow up and are perfectly "normal" not all of them develop the syndrome. Should dog breeder stop producing boxers because many of them go on to develop cancer? Should lab breeders cease to exist because many develop hip displasia or skin/ear issues? Just because an animal "may" develop genetically linked issues is not a reason in my eyes to forgo producing them all together. With breeding any animal comes hard choices and careful planning. Breeding perfectly "normal" acting enigmas will sometimes produce offspring with the syndrome. Does that mean we as breeders shouldn't breed enigmas in the effort to produce more "normal" enigmas?

 

[roger]

Because part of the process of finding a "solution" to the enigma issue is breeding them. Even if you produce non-enigma geckos you are still eventually going to get babies that need to be culled. The fact is, with any animal, you don't know for sure there will be defects. Some enigmas grow up and are perfectly "normal" not all of them develop the syndrome. Should dog breeder stop producing boxers because many of them go on to develop cancer? Should lab breeders cease to exist because many develop hip displasia or skin/ear issues? Just because an animal "may" develop genetically linked issues is not a reason in my eyes to forgo producing them all together. With breeding any animal comes hard choices and careful planning. Breeding perfectly "normal" acting enigmas will sometimes produce offspring with the syndrome. Does that mean we as breeders shouldn't breed enigmas in the effort to produce more "normal" enigmas?

Sure your going to get hatclings from regular geckos, that are going to have to be put down.I understand that, thats all part of it.Yes a dog breeder should stop breeding those animals if they show heriditary defects and in canada they do not breed dogs with hereditary defects..I am the owner of 3 purebred dogs 2 are purbred labs.The three breeders I got my dogs from guarantee no defects in their animals.Their past pedigree lineage all are defect free.Dog breeders who have dogs with hip or any other ailments do not use those dogs in breeding.They retire those dogs.The good dog breeders use nothing but top notch healthy dogs whose past lineage show no signs of hereditary defects.

 

[Herp_junky]

I'm kind of on the fence with issues like this mainly because I would like to see us find a way to "straighten out" these types of issues and at the same time I hate to see an animal suffer. But you really can't gaurantee that you won't have issues with a defect that is genetic. With a lot of these defects its unknown as to how or what causes them so there's no gaurantee they won't pop up,even in a defect free lineage.