P
PSGeckos
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420Geckos said:
Sorry my fault, didn't want it too, just wanted some advice from you guys as your so much more advnaced than us - Sorry
New Enigma Thread
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Sorry my fault, didn't want it too, just wanted some advice from you guys as your so much more advnaced than us - Sorry
Mel&Keith
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PSGeckos said:Sorry my fault, didn't want it too, just wanted some advice from you guys as your so much more advnaced than us - Sorry
You didn't start the arguing, don't be sorry.
P
PSGeckos
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When can i emigrate to the US???????:main_yes:
dprince
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knz-geckos said:
Ron Tremper has made no bones about not being super fond of the enigma. Being that you are his distributor in the UK, I'm just asking - in a totally respectful way - if that doesn't cloud your judgement in any way?
No disrespect intended to anyone. It's an honest question.
And as far as that goes, I don't think that breeders working with enigmas are "covering up" these or any issues. I think we're sharing, and trying to learn, so that we can figure out exactly why things happen (not just this, genetics too).
If you want to do SCIENTIFIC research about enigmas, I'm happy to supply you with information that I've come across in my experience. There may be others willing to do the same thing. If you are just compiling bad stories, I would caution you that that is NOT scientific evidence, and comes across more as a witch hunt.
In doing research on various morphs, you will find that MOST new morphs DID have some issues in the begining that are either being seen less and less of or are non existent. That's why sharing information - the GOOD as well as the bad - can help the whole leopard gecko community learn and make better and better decisions in all that we do.
Golden Gate Geckos
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Well said, Debbie... thanks!
I would like to invite many of you to utilise the "SEARCH" function here of this website. I think you might find that the majority of the topics you are discussing on other forums have been discussed here as well.... in a professional and respectful manner.
Heck, Some of you may even learn something!
I would like to invite many of you to utilise the "SEARCH" function here of this website. I think you might find that the majority of the topics you are discussing on other forums have been discussed here as well.... in a professional and respectful manner.
Heck, Some of you may even learn something!
L
leo mel
Guest
Hi I am sorry if this came across as arguing , i just feel the whole situation over on the rfuk very frustrating:main_no: , out of the breeders that do own enigmas none of us have any issues with them infact i am proud to annonce my first enigma baby and like his dad he also shows no issues.
however it seems that down to one gecko which is from parents of one of the first in the uk which seems to be exhibiting signs and a bit of googling on the internet it is presummed that all enigma gecko are tainted and therfore should not be bred.
we as uk breeders did not wish to cause any problems we actually posted on here to ask for your'e own opinions on it and thoughts, we as uk breeders believed that intially there was a problem wuth the very early enigmas but since then this had been eradicated by outcrossing, and after looking at so many of your'e enigmas and enigmas offspring this did confirm for us that all was well.
we are well aware that we are far behind you when it comes to leo breeding but hope to learn listen and respect your'e many opinions, i do not want anyone to think i am arguing , i just hope people will understand why we as uk breeders are disappointed in the way some things have gone over there and we hope you understand this.
, i just feel the whole situation over on the rfuk very frustrating:main_no: , out of the breeders that do own enigmas none of us have any issues with them infact i am proud to annonce my first enigma baby and like his dad he also shows no issues.however it seems that down to one gecko which is from parents of one of the first in the uk which seems to be exhibiting signs and a bit of googling on the internet it is presummed that all enigma gecko are tainted and therfore should not be bred.
we as uk breeders did not wish to cause any problems we actually posted on here to ask for your'e own opinions on it and thoughts, we as uk breeders believed that intially there was a problem wuth the very early enigmas but since then this had been eradicated by outcrossing, and after looking at so many of your'e enigmas and enigmas offspring this did confirm for us that all was well.
we are well aware that we are far behind you when it comes to leo breeding but hope to learn listen and respect your'e many opinions, i do not want anyone to think i am arguing , i just hope people will understand why we as uk breeders are disappointed in the way some things have gone over there and we hope you understand this.
K
knz-geckos
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The Gecko Prince said:
In answer to your question. I haven't spoken to Ron regarding he's likes or dislikes of the enigma morph. I have not hidden the fact that I am he's UK Distributor a google search would tell anyone that.
When ever I post it is totally my own personal opinion, I can not speak for Ron as I don't represent him as a person I represent his geckos.
P
PSGeckos
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Paul
Can i ask why it is your looking for an Enigma?
http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=167118#post167118
If you are so concerned about this issue with the Enigmas?
Can i ask why it is your looking for an Enigma?
http://www.geckoforums.net/showthread.php?p=167118#post167118
If you are so concerned about this issue with the Enigmas?
K
knz-geckos
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This has been discussed on RFUK many of times also through PM. Yes I was looking for an enigma but as we look more and more into the possible problems with the morph I feel that it would be irresponsible for me to breed them.
Also I am not here to discuss my personal matters or what I may or may not have in my collection. This discussion is about enigma's not me and my collection.
Also I am not here to discuss my personal matters or what I may or may not have in my collection. This discussion is about enigma's not me and my collection.
P
PSGeckos
Guest
knz-geckos said:
Sorry Paul i must of missed it, i only came across your thread today on here in the classified section, and it was only out of curiosity why you were looking given that you appear to be so against the morph, maybe this was wrong of me to post this question on the publci forum and i should've indeed PMed you instead.
knz-geckos said:
Agin as i've said i was only trying to ascertain as to why you were posted wanted adds - i appologise i should've PMed you.
Paul....
I do not know you personally....so I would certainly give you the benefit of the doubt that you have NOT spoken to Ron regarding his feelings on this morph.....although I do find it quite surprising that someone that is his "UK Distributor" wouldnt discuss a subject that appears to be so important, with someone as experienced and knowledgeable as Ron Tremper.....I am just a small breeder here in the U.S. that has made purchases from Ron and I know I have discussed the enigma morph with him personally, myself.
I would also like to add....
I would NOT consider myself the "go-to" guy on the enigma morph by ANY stretch....but I have had the pleasure (and I DO consider it a pleasure by the way) of working with them for a while and I am now into my third generation of animals. I have seen a small amount of this "circling" apparent in EXACTLY two of the many animals I have produced here. I do not wish to disclose, at this time, in a public forum, the amount of enigmas I have worked with or produced....but suffice it to say it is more than 25 and less than 100. The two that I speak of showed signs immediatley after hatching until about 2 weeks old....and it was only apparent in situations I would most accurately discribe as extreme stress (ie. their living enviroment being disrupted, going from a low light situation into a high light situation abruptly, etc.)
I, personally, do not find anything wrong with you and others bringing to people's attention, the fact that SOME enigmas have been found to exhibit "odd behavior". As I would also think it proper to discuss this finding with fellow hobbyists as well. I do, however, not agree with the condemnation of the morph that you are so apparently suggesting.
We here in the U.S. are very aware of this oddity in some of the enigma animals, as made clear in this and other prior threads concerning enigmas.
I can only speak for myself, as you speak for yourself, in stating that I feel the "lion's share" of the burden now rests with individual breeders and their commitment to accurately describe their animals before and after purchase. As well as breeders and hobbyists HONESTLY disclosing their findings and their individual "methods" of compiling these findings (ie...number of animals in their study groups, morphs outcrossed in their study groups, etc....)
This morph was presented from the very beginning as an oddity.....hence the name ENIGMA......
It was NEVER presented to me or anyone I know of as a set in stone, concrete stable morph ready for mass reproduction and distribution on grand scale. It was instead presented to me, personally, as a very interesting and unusual oportunity for me and many other hobbyists to get in on the ground floor of a unique morph.....an opportunity to do some of the "grass roots" work involved in pioneering a new morph. What an awesome opportunity!.....and what excitement this has brought to me and many others! With this opportunity comes a responsibility though.....a responsibility to expect the unexpected...good AND bad.....to share these experiences with others openly.....and to show respect toward other hobbyists/breeders and their findings.....not present our opinions as fact, and to very very importantly NOT jump to conclusions prematurely.
I respect your opinions Paul.....but please recognize that much of what you argue here is in fact nothing but your opinion sir. I welcome factual findings when included with them are the all important origination and methods for these findings.
There are many many possible scenarios one can come up with to either dispute or prove these accusations you make toward the condemnation of this morph. (And make no mistake about it Paul....the way you present it....it is indeed a condemnation.) But the scientific reality of it as it stands now is that a lot of work has to be done.....many of us have spent a large some of money and dedicated a lot of our time already in this venture....and we will see it through my friend....with you helping us on our journey or attempting to stand in our way.....I can only hope you choose to step back and see this as an opportunity to expand our great hobby....and not one to jump the gun and critize for whatever reasons you may have.
I do not know you personally....so I would certainly give you the benefit of the doubt that you have NOT spoken to Ron regarding his feelings on this morph.....although I do find it quite surprising that someone that is his "UK Distributor" wouldnt discuss a subject that appears to be so important, with someone as experienced and knowledgeable as Ron Tremper.....I am just a small breeder here in the U.S. that has made purchases from Ron and I know I have discussed the enigma morph with him personally, myself.
I would also like to add....
I would NOT consider myself the "go-to" guy on the enigma morph by ANY stretch....but I have had the pleasure (and I DO consider it a pleasure by the way) of working with them for a while and I am now into my third generation of animals. I have seen a small amount of this "circling" apparent in EXACTLY two of the many animals I have produced here. I do not wish to disclose, at this time, in a public forum, the amount of enigmas I have worked with or produced....but suffice it to say it is more than 25 and less than 100. The two that I speak of showed signs immediatley after hatching until about 2 weeks old....and it was only apparent in situations I would most accurately discribe as extreme stress (ie. their living enviroment being disrupted, going from a low light situation into a high light situation abruptly, etc.)
I, personally, do not find anything wrong with you and others bringing to people's attention, the fact that SOME enigmas have been found to exhibit "odd behavior". As I would also think it proper to discuss this finding with fellow hobbyists as well. I do, however, not agree with the condemnation of the morph that you are so apparently suggesting.
We here in the U.S. are very aware of this oddity in some of the enigma animals, as made clear in this and other prior threads concerning enigmas.
I can only speak for myself, as you speak for yourself, in stating that I feel the "lion's share" of the burden now rests with individual breeders and their commitment to accurately describe their animals before and after purchase. As well as breeders and hobbyists HONESTLY disclosing their findings and their individual "methods" of compiling these findings (ie...number of animals in their study groups, morphs outcrossed in their study groups, etc....)
This morph was presented from the very beginning as an oddity.....hence the name ENIGMA......
It was NEVER presented to me or anyone I know of as a set in stone, concrete stable morph ready for mass reproduction and distribution on grand scale. It was instead presented to me, personally, as a very interesting and unusual oportunity for me and many other hobbyists to get in on the ground floor of a unique morph.....an opportunity to do some of the "grass roots" work involved in pioneering a new morph. What an awesome opportunity!.....and what excitement this has brought to me and many others! With this opportunity comes a responsibility though.....a responsibility to expect the unexpected...good AND bad.....to share these experiences with others openly.....and to show respect toward other hobbyists/breeders and their findings.....not present our opinions as fact, and to very very importantly NOT jump to conclusions prematurely.
I respect your opinions Paul.....but please recognize that much of what you argue here is in fact nothing but your opinion sir. I welcome factual findings when included with them are the all important origination and methods for these findings.
There are many many possible scenarios one can come up with to either dispute or prove these accusations you make toward the condemnation of this morph. (And make no mistake about it Paul....the way you present it....it is indeed a condemnation.) But the scientific reality of it as it stands now is that a lot of work has to be done.....many of us have spent a large some of money and dedicated a lot of our time already in this venture....and we will see it through my friend....with you helping us on our journey or attempting to stand in our way.....I can only hope you choose to step back and see this as an opportunity to expand our great hobby....and not one to jump the gun and critize for whatever reasons you may have.
Gregg M
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Not sure why you guys are jumping on Paul... He is not saying he is against the morph... He is concerned about some of the issues that may or may not come with it...
Ron Tremper never even said he was against the morph... What I heard straight from his mouth is that the morph was in it infancy and needed to be test bred... At the time he said this, he was 100% correct... That is exactly what everyone who got in on the Enigma project has done and is still doing...
I know this morph is going far and people like miamimike and Paulnj and other great breeders (sorry I did not call you by name) may have already worked out the bugs in the morph...
Should the problems with the morph be swept under the rug??? No way... The only thing that will help the issue is talking about it and working with the morph to pull out any kinks...
Jumping on people looking for honest answers is not going to cut it...
Ron Tremper never even said he was against the morph... What I heard straight from his mouth is that the morph was in it infancy and needed to be test bred... At the time he said this, he was 100% correct... That is exactly what everyone who got in on the Enigma project has done and is still doing...
I know this morph is going far and people like miamimike and Paulnj and other great breeders (sorry I did not call you by name) may have already worked out the bugs in the morph...
Should the problems with the morph be swept under the rug??? No way... The only thing that will help the issue is talking about it and working with the morph to pull out any kinks...
Jumping on people looking for honest answers is not going to cut it...
K
knz-geckos
Guest
Thank You Gregg I do honestly think more should be researched with this morph. It does have an awful lot of potential but the bugs need removing if they can.
I do honestly think more should be researched with this morph. It does have an awful lot of potential but the bugs need removing if they can.Mel&Keith
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Greg, have you read the entire thread over on the UK forum?
Paul.....
I dont think anyone would have said a peep if you had stated it as you had just stated it in your last statement here.
Gregg....did you take the time to read the statements (many many of them) that were made on the european forum who's link is given earlier in this thread?? If after reading this...you still think that Paul is a neutral person and is not out looking for negatives to prove his "theory" and jumping the gun here I will ask you to re-read it my friend. He states there quite clearly that enigmas that are outcrossed into different morphs arer weaker than the others.....HUH?....I have experienced exactly the opposite!.....so have a number of hobbyists I have spoken with. I am not saying that NO ONE has seen these abnormalities....lets be straight about that. They are real...they exist....I am not denying that!...
Let me just interject a possible "scenario" that "might" have happened.....
What if way back....whomever it was.....bought, hatched, found, the first "enigma-like" animal. They bred it to 6 females of animals they had availble to them at the time. These 6 animals may have been part of an existing breeding program they may go back 10 generations....making them a bit in-bred. Now...we take the babies hatched from this project....breed them together and breed them back to their parents. We select out the enigma looking ones and breed them back again.....ooops...a couple males have a bit of a strange behavior...very slight...such that it might go un-noticed except to the most trained eye. Now these "strange" acting males are bred out...as well as normal acting males....do you see where I am going?...It is very possible that some enigmas will have this potential "problem" in them and some wont. Because an animal is an enigma does not mean it definetly has this characteristic built in.....do you have proof otherwise??
Again....I will state as i have before.....I have NO problem with the subject being brought up Gregg....None what so ever!.....I nor anyone else here said anything about sweeping anything under any rugs!.... and I am making NO judgements about Paul's integrity or ethics!....I am simply stating that I feel (again, as I have stated earlier) we as hobbyists and breeders are responsible for what happens now....for disclosing information honestly....and not starting a panic-enduced hysteria.....
I dont think anyone would have said a peep if you had stated it as you had just stated it in your last statement here.
Gregg....did you take the time to read the statements (many many of them) that were made on the european forum who's link is given earlier in this thread?? If after reading this...you still think that Paul is a neutral person and is not out looking for negatives to prove his "theory" and jumping the gun here I will ask you to re-read it my friend. He states there quite clearly that enigmas that are outcrossed into different morphs arer weaker than the others.....HUH?....I have experienced exactly the opposite!.....so have a number of hobbyists I have spoken with. I am not saying that NO ONE has seen these abnormalities....lets be straight about that. They are real...they exist....I am not denying that!...
Let me just interject a possible "scenario" that "might" have happened.....
What if way back....whomever it was.....bought, hatched, found, the first "enigma-like" animal. They bred it to 6 females of animals they had availble to them at the time. These 6 animals may have been part of an existing breeding program they may go back 10 generations....making them a bit in-bred. Now...we take the babies hatched from this project....breed them together and breed them back to their parents. We select out the enigma looking ones and breed them back again.....ooops...a couple males have a bit of a strange behavior...very slight...such that it might go un-noticed except to the most trained eye. Now these "strange" acting males are bred out...as well as normal acting males....do you see where I am going?...It is very possible that some enigmas will have this potential "problem" in them and some wont. Because an animal is an enigma does not mean it definetly has this characteristic built in.....do you have proof otherwise??
Again....I will state as i have before.....I have NO problem with the subject being brought up Gregg....None what so ever!.....I nor anyone else here said anything about sweeping anything under any rugs!.... and I am making NO judgements about Paul's integrity or ethics!....I am simply stating that I feel (again, as I have stated earlier) we as hobbyists and breeders are responsible for what happens now....for disclosing information honestly....and not starting a panic-enduced hysteria.....
Golden Gate Geckos
Mean Old Gecko Lady
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miamimike said:
I couldn't agree more! The responsible breeding and testing of this exciting morph, along with the open disclosure of any issues with them will be the ONLY way we can assure that the next generations of Enigmas will be robust and thrive! We all need to work together to achieve this.GreggM said:
Last edited by a moderator:
gregg i agree questioning is ok...
"Trust me I've been a reptile keeper for twenty years to realise whats going on. Its genetic defect which as caused this problem because of too much inbreeding it seems that somewhere along the lines there have been problems with the genetic makeup."
But from that quote on the uk forum he sounds like he's got the answers already its quite an interesting read at least from the few pages ive made it through, im sure you'll check it out though if you havent already b/c if theres one thing ive learned about you, you like to research/investigate
"Trust me I've been a reptile keeper for twenty years to realise whats going on. Its genetic defect which as caused this problem because of too much inbreeding it seems that somewhere along the lines there have been problems with the genetic makeup."
But from that quote on the uk forum he sounds like he's got the answers already
its quite an interesting read at least from the few pages ive made it through, im sure you'll check it out though if you havent already b/c if theres one thing ive learned about you, you like to research/investigate - Status
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