sand sand sand

[GeckoMandi]

I use sphagnum moss in most of my humid hides, and occasionally I'll notice that there is some of the moss in the geckos' feces. Out of 200+ geckos I have on the sphagnum moss, I've never had get "impacted" by it. I suppose it's possible though.

That is what I now use Paul since you suggested it and it work's AWESOME, I haven't seen any in their poo though, and I have looked for it. Does the organic kind make any difference on digesting it?

 

[robin]

I have not had that happen Joyce but it very well could. There may only be a 1% chance, but it could happen. They can also become impacted if they accidentally ingest a piece of a paper towel when grabbing for a cricket. They can choke on their own shedding skin even. So there are always risks when keeping wild animals in captivity.

i never knew this. very interesting :main_rolleyes:
wait haven't i been trying to say this from the beginning?

 

[PaulSage]

That is what I now use Paul since you suggested it and it work's AWESOME, I haven't seen any in their poo though, and I have looked for it. Does the organic kind make any difference on digesting it?

That's a good question. I know peat moss is acidic, which may interfere 'less' with digestive systems than some substrates... I'll do a pH test on the sphagnum moss and let you know what I find out.

 

[robin]

i wonder if in the wild they have humid hides, mealworm dishes and water dishes?

 

[GeckoMandi]

:main_thumbsup:

That's a good question. I know peat moss is acidic, which may interfere 'less' with digestive systems than some substrates... I'll do a pH test on the sphagnum moss and let you know what I find out.

Ok very cool thanks, ill look foward to seeing what you find.

BTW I am using the oragnic kind.

 

[PaulSage]

i wonder if in the wild they have humid hides, mealworm dishes and watcher dishes?

Of course they do, Robin. It's right next to the flex-watt tree.

 

[robin]

could that be anywhere near to the calcium stone?

 

[Scott&Nikki]

I have a question for you about my situation. I almost had a gecko die as a direct result of being on papertowel and because I did not pick her up frequently to check for egg formations. Nor did I figure she would produce eggs since she had never been with a male. Lesson learned for me. The lack of a natural laying area played a direct result in her becoming egg bound. Had I had her on sand this would not have happened. My opinion is that husbandry and individual health status of an animal plays a larger role in life & death then the substrate does. An animal with a compromised immune system is going to have a different metabolism and digestive function then a non compromised animal. Are we as keepers going to be able to identify this health deficiency 100% of the time, no. Sometimes geckos die for no apparent reason whether you you breed 1000's or 1. I guess my point is don't judge the sand to bad, and it is ok to have a (now I think it was you that said) "strong personal preference" against sand, just maybe keep an open mind that what you are recommending "papertowel" can also cause a gecko to die.

-Joyce

Joyce,
My take on your example was, the paper towel had nothing to do with your geckos egg binding. The lack of a lay box or even humid hide (with a better laying substrate) is to blame. That goes back to what Gregg said about it being more husbandry. (Not attacking you) The problem was because you did not provide your female with a proper area. Paper towels itself did not harm your leo. I do try to keep an open mind, but the people telling me too keep an open mind about sand, are the same ones not having an open mind about the dangers.. even when impaction cases are proven. (Again..) MY OPINION is that yes, exactly, geckos can die for many reasons. MY THINKING is why not eliminate as much possibility as you can? Does that make sense? I never told anyone not to use it.

 

[jmkbama]

While it is true that some species (afganicus comes to mind off the top of my head) do not live in "sandy" areas, macularius in some areas have been documented as living around lots of sand.

Eublepharis macularius have a fairly large range, from Afghanistan, Northwestern India, and Pakistan and there have even been specimens collected in the eastern part of Iran.

Leopard geckos have been collected on a hard soil which contained a layer of sand covering the top. Here is a quote from J. A. Anderson's "A report
on the gecko Teratolepis fasciata (describing the same area where Eublepharis sp.) occur from The Journal of
Bombay Natural History Society from 1964. The collection
site was a deserted cemetery at Raj Malk, district Thatta on the
western edge of the Indus delta in Pakistan. "The terrain is flat with
an average elevation of less than 10 ft. above sea level. The soil is
loose, grey sand and silt."

It is believed that the founding stock of all of the captive bred leos in the US was caught in Sindh, Pakistan, which is in the southern part of the country.

Here is an image to show you what the area of Sindh looks like.
www.reliefonline.org/images/sindh_drought_2.jpg

Szczerbak and Golubev (1996) say that E. macularius lives..."on
clay-gravel soil covered by sand and abounding in bushes of
Zygophyllum."

Kelli, you would certainly know much more about the subject than I would, as I said, I am not an expert, nor am I going to sit here and copy and paste several examples stating the leopard gecko (Eublepharis macularius), The Leopard Gecko is native to south-eastern Afghanistan, most of Pakistan, and north-west India, and inhabits primarily the rocky, dry grassland regions of these countries. As nocturnal creatures, they spend the day hidden under rocks or in dry burrows to escape the daytime heat, emerging at dusk to hunt insects. Leopard Geckos are considered among the most recommendable lizards with which to start the hobby of caring for herps...from wikepedia.com.

Actually, I was going to, but after about 20 minutes of posting quotes on dry rocky, sparse grassland, hard clay and try to avoid sandy areas, with the exception of hard clay with light sand covering, I accidentally clicked off the forum site searching for another site and lost all of my quotes. :main_angry:

As a newbie, all I can do is go by what I have read and frankly, I enjoy throwing in my two cents when I think I can. I have also read in a couple of books that they try to avoid sandy areas in the wild when possible. I know their are geckos that do live in sandy areas, but I thought the leopard gecko, (Eublepharis macularius), was the leopard gecko, I thought other forms were different species of geckos such as Fat Tails, crested, etc. The Eublepharis macularius is the only species I have been trying to research.

Again, it was just my opinion to begin with stating what I had read.

 

[KelliH]

Well, I've said my piece more than once, so I'm about done. Keep an open mind everyone!

 

[Gazz]

From everything I have read, Leopard Geckos are from parts fo the middle east, Afghanstan as an example. They live in a desert environment for sure, but that in no way means sand. The tend to avoid sandy areas and live in rocky and sparse grassland environments, again avoiding sandy areas.

If they do not live in sand naturally, why would we put them in sand in captivity. Wouldn't that be like trying to make saltwater fish live in tapwater? Even if they survive, why even take the chance of harming something you care about?

Afghanstain is only one example of leo's range with all the speices and sub'speices you can not pick out little bit and bobs to try and make your point.Point is if you go out in the field you will see a leo on rocks you will see them amoung grass even on more soil type flooring but you will also see a leo on SAND.What you won't see is a leo standing on a little square of kitchen roll paper :main_laugh: :main_thumbsup: .As for the fish thing ever herd of a salmon,eel,sturgeon,etc .compairing inviermental MUST HAVE'S in context for substates will not help you make you point.Putting a salt water fish in fresh water will kill it pretty much strate away if it not a speices that can't adapt to fresh water.Putting a leo on sand will not kill it and hasn't for me for the past 8 what ever years i've had leo's.
Here is a rough map of the leo's speices range.

 

[KelliH]

Again, it was just my opinion to begin with stating what I had read.

Exactly, just like I am expressing mine

My point is that all over the range of Eublepharis is sand. Of course it isn't sandy like a beach or the Saharan Desert, but it's pretty darn sandy, you have to admit. Anyway, we are all entitled to our opinions of course and free to express them here on this site. No harm in a good, healthy debate!

 

[jmkbama]

Me too. And by the way, Kelli, if you read this, I have also sent you an email inquiring about the availability of one of your geckos on your website when you have a minute, no rush. Just to make sure you got it, the first couple of tries from my email got rejected for some reason, so not positive you got it.

thank you.

 

[KelliH]

JMK-

Try sending the message to [email protected]
My hisss.net email tends to dump half my emails in a SPAM folder.

 

[jmkbama]

Afghanstain is only one example of leo's range with all the speices and sub'speices you can not pick out little bit and bobs to try and make your point.Point is if you go out in the field you will see a leo on rocks you will see them amoung grass even on more soil type flooring but you will also see a leo on SAND.What you won't see is a leo standing on a little square of kitchen roll paper :main_laugh: :main_thumbsup: .As for the fish thing ever herd of a salmon,eel,sturgeon,etc .compairing inviermental MUST HAVE'S in context for substates will not help you make you point.Putting a salt water fish in fresh water will kill it pretty much strate away if it not a speices that can't adapt to fresh water.Putting a leo on sand will not kill it and hasn't for me for the past 8 what ever years i've had leo's.
Here is a rough map of the leo's speices range.

Again, I was just pointing out what I have read. The closes I have read about the leopard gecko in it's natural habitat that relates to sand is hard clay with a little sand covering, but that they tend to stay in rocky, grassland areas and avoid sandy areas. Of course, unless some afghan, indian, pakistanian, etc. has been littering a lot in their habitat you wouldn't see them on paper towels. From everything I have read, slate and a rocky gravel would be closest to the majority of the Eublepharis macularius (which is what I thought was the Leopard gecko) natural habitat. That is from wikipedia, a few books, several breeder sites and other internet searches on leopard geckos and their natural environment. As a newbie, all I can go by is what I have been able to find in books on the web and sites such as this. I like throwing in my opinion in these matters just to get a different take and learn from more experienced people. Afghanistan was just one of example of the middle eastern, asia areas of their natural habitat that I meant as an example. Of course I have heard of eels,....etc, and brackish water fish. The point I was trying to make was that you wouldn't deliberately take an animal from it's natural habitat and put it in something that you new wasn't natural, such as salt water to fresh. In my opinion having a sand only substrate would be like a beach and no where in their natural habitat that I am aware of, do they hang out on a sandy beach. Most of their natural range is more of a rocky, gravel type of environment and yes, I have been in that part of the country, Egypt may be like a huge beach without the ocean, but most of the other countries over their are very rocky, not sandy. That is the only point I was trying to make and again it was just my opinion.

In most cases, if everyone has the same opinion, only one of them is needed. That is what makes these type of forums great, it gives newbies like me a chance to express my opinion and to learn from others about it. Even if you occassionally get to ranting and do not re read and actually think through what you are typing (such as the fish thing).

 

[yellermelon]

he heee can i have my cookie? I reeeeaaalllyyyy want it!
you know that red hot chili peppers song...*sings* I LOVE ALLLLLL OF YOUUUUUU....lol ok nevermind

 

[JBrune]

I would be interested in the pH test on the moss as well.

Scott or Nikki,
I had a humid hide it was just layers of papertowels, which I have seen many times when people show pictures of their set ups. I also have had breeding females lay on the papertowel outside of their lay box (which sucks), I had just never experienced a single housed gecko with egg binding 'cause she really preferred an nice diggable space. Its all good.

But that flex-watt tree look out for that. And I don't think there are mealworm dishes out there in the wild I think Pepsi has the vending contract out there and there are tiny cricket/mealworm/roaches/superworm/wax worm vending machines right next to local Starbucks:main_laugh:
Joyce

 

[Gregg M]

gregg you know as i do this is tame for me LOL
they do not know what "the worst", is for me, online. this isn't even remotely close and i think when i am at my worst i am at my best. :main_yes:

gregg you know how much entertainment i get from getting the better of people. :main_thumbsup:

the entertainment value is priceless

Robin, as you should know, I was not talking about you...LOL... Remember I told you a while back, "Great minds think alike"....:main_thumbsup:

Besides, I think every time you post, you are at your best....

 

[Gazz]

Has anyone thought that impact maybe only half the story ? What if impacted is only a end result.If a leo gets a intestine infection as a result can't have number 2's and it just builds up and up not just of sand but evey thing it eats as not all leo's go off there food strate away ??.The number of leo's dying of impact is farly small so is just as possible that leo's dying from so called impacted could have been on there way out anyway with internal problems of some kind or other that would't be so obvious to you and as a result ends as impact.

 

[marula]

Here is an image to show you what the area of Sindh looks like.
www.reliefonline.org/images/sindh_drought_2.jpg

...so i need to take of their tanks the toilet room, the sofa and the play room... :thinking:

..pooor geckos...hard life the CB life....