sand sand sand

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I feel leos kept on sand without problems with impaction has less to do with luck and more to do with proper husbandry...

I completely agree, Gregg. Like I said in an earlier post:

Personally, I do not really have any issues with healthy adult geckos on non-silica sand substrates. I don't feel it is appropriate for hatchlings or juveniles, though.

I DO take issue with Calcium Sand! It is inappropriate for ANY Leopard Gecko.

Proper husbandry is the key element for keeping our leos' metabolism, immune and digestive systems functioning optimally. Healthy adult leopard geckos that are kept on sand in proper environmental conditions would definitely have less chances of impaction.

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

I forgot to add that it is GREAT to have a good debate going on this heated issue without any name-calling!

I'm going to go have a SANDwich instead!

Doesn't the sand get caught in your teeth?

 

[BalloonzForU]

I forgot to add that it is GREAT to have a good debate going on this heated issue without any name-calling!Doesn't the sand get caught in your teeth?

Nah, Only the Calci Sand!!!

 

[JBrune]

No problem with the teeth...

but I certainly hope I don't get impacted!

As stated by others good debate guys, but just be careful when you make statements like "people who keep animals on sand must not care for their animals" or something like that. That is just as bad as name calling in my opinion and it only fans the flames. Like I stated earlier, I had a major medical issue and almost lost a gecko on papertowel because she got egg bound. She was never mated and I just thought her larger abdomen was normal until she started to lose tail size. This brought my attention to her and when i picked her up she had two or maybe 3 eggs in her. A lot of TLC and a sand lay box saved her life. I have not made any statements saying papertowels are dangerous and should not be used but there is this risk to keep in mind. Just remember its okay to educate and share an opinion or make a recommendation... just don't judge.

Where's that sandwich.....:banana:
Joyce

 

[Scott&Nikki]

but I certainly hope I don't get impacted!

As stated by others good debate guys, but just be careful when you make statements like "people who keep animals on sand must not care for their animals" or something like that. That is just as bad as name calling in my opinion and it only fans the flames. Like I stated earlier, I had a major medical issue and almost lost a gecko on papertowel because she got egg bound. She was never mated and I just thought her larger abdomen was normal until she started to lose tail size. This brought my attention to her and when i picked her up she had two or maybe 3 eggs in her. A lot of TLC and a sand lay box saved her life. I have not made any statements saying papertowels are dangerous and should not be used but there is this risk to keep in mind. Just remember its okay to educate and share an opinion or make a recommendation... just don't judge.

Where's that sandwich.....:banana:
Joyce

Yet again, my words are being twisted around. It wasn't "people who keep animals on sand must not care for their animals". That was completely taken out of context. I said that when "for-sand" people say stuff like "well 1 out of however many isn't bad" they must not care as much as others. I, and many others, would not just put it past me because ONLY 1 died from impaction. For me, it wouldn't be "only 1 died, so thats not bad". It would be "one died, so I won't do that". Twisting my words around and taking them out of context, and then saying what I said is as bad as name calling is just ridiculous.

 

[robin]

Yet again, my words are being twisted around. It wasn't "people who keep animals on sand must not care for their animals". That was completely taken out of context. I said that when "for-sand" people say stuff like "well 1 out of however many isn't bad" they must not care as much as others. I, and many others, would not just put it past me because ONLY 1 died from impaction. For me, it wouldn't be "only 1 died, so thats not bad". It would be "one died, so I won't do that". Twisting my words around and taking them out of context, and then saying what I said is as bad as name calling is just ridiculous.

oh get over yourself. i didnt name call and if others read back ( in the other thread) they will see that i did not twist your words. that is how they came across.

now that being said, if you ("you" includes everyone on this board, see it's a generalization) can not hang in a heated discussion without getting your feelings hurt you should not be a part of it.

NOW.. on to my response
that was me who said one out of however many may die blah blah blah. that being said this is a imaginary ratio (yes imaginary since no studies of play sand or natural sand have been done and very FEW actual documented cases of play sand or natural sand causing impaction have been show) to show how small the chance is. similar to kelli saying that large breeders lose a couple of geckos a season to some sort of breeding related issue (something like that). now she is better at wording things than i am and she is much nicer in the way she comes across with them BUT i was trying to make the same type of association or statement or whatever.

 

[robin]

but I certainly hope I don't get impacted!

Where's that sandwich.....:banana:
Joyce

hey umm ya ever had that drink "sex on the beach"? i havent but i wonder if it leaves a gritty taste in your mouth? :main_laugh:

 

[Golden Gate Geckos]

OK guys, let's stop the accusations. If we can't play nice I will simply close this thread. :argue:

 

[robin]

marcia i always play nice ... but sometimes i tend to get dirt and sand in my diaper

 

[GeckoMandi]

hey umm ya ever had that drink "sex on the beach"? i havent but i wonder if it leaves a gritty taste in your mouth? :main_laugh:

That is a good drink, I haven't had one in years from what I remember no gritty after taste, I would like some PJ (purple jesus) yumm we use to fill coolers up with that stuff.

 

[Scott&Nikki]

Robin, and if YOU read back you will see that I simply stated MY OPINION was: no matter how small the risk (and even said "less than 1%"), it was not worth it in MY MIND. I can't even count how many times I have bolded, capitalized, starred, put warnings, of how what I was saying was MY OPINION. Apparently everyone is reading everything I say except that point.

And get over myself? I wasn't even responding to you. That was a direct response to what Joyce said.

 

[robin]

do you ever plan on breeding your leopard geckO?

 

[jmkbama]

I am new to geckos and am certainly not an expert. I have however done a lot of research about them on the internet and read 5 books to date on them. In my opinion, and as Scott says, just my OPINION, I do not understand why people are concerning themselves with impaction and sand. Sand can't be that much more attractive or slate, pea gravel or other forms of rocks that could be used as an alternative.

Even though the leopard geckos are captive bred and have never lived in the wild, why wouldn't people want to keep them either on something you know is safe (paper towels) or something that would simulate their natural environment.

From everything I have read, Leopard Geckos are from parts fo the middle east, Afghanstan as an example. They live in a desert environment for sure, but that in no way means sand. The tend to avoid sandy areas and live in rocky and sparse grassland environments, again avoiding sandy areas.

If they do not live in sand naturally, why would we put them in sand in captivity. Wouldn't that be like trying to make saltwater fish live in tapwater? Even if they survive, why even take the chance of harming something you care about?

 

[Gregg M]

Cant we all just get along??? These talks seem to bring the worst out in people and no one is immune... There are 2 sides that feel strong about something... There will always be an argument about this... I used to fall into these arguments all the time... I guess I am getting more mellow as I get older...LOL

All that needs to be done is for people to accept the fact that some people will use sand and some will not...Thats just how it is... No one on either side is right or wrong because it is all a matter of opinion and what each individual keeper would rather do...

 

[robin]

Cant we all just get along??? These talks seem to bring the worst out in people and no one is immune...

gregg you know as i do this is tame for me LOL
they do not know what "the worst", is for me, online. this isn't even remotely close and i think when i am at my worst i am at my best. :main_yes:

gregg you know how much entertainment i get from getting the better of people. :main_thumbsup:

the entertainment value is priceless

 

[JBrune]

Scott or Nikki

I have a question for you about my situation. I almost had a gecko die as a direct result of being on papertowel and because I did not pick her up frequently to check for egg formations. Nor did I figure she would produce eggs since she had never been with a male. Lesson learned for me. The lack of a natural laying area played a direct result in her becoming egg bound. Had I had her on sand this would not have happened. My opinion is that husbandry and individual health status of an animal plays a larger role in life & death then the substrate does. An animal with a compromised immune system is going to have a different metabolism and digestive function then a non compromised animal. Are we as keepers going to be able to identify this health deficiency 100% of the time, no. Sometimes geckos die for no apparent reason whether you you breed 1000's or 1. I guess my point is don't judge the sand to bad, and it is ok to have a (now I think it was you that said) "strong personal preference" against sand, just maybe keep an open mind that what you are recommending "papertowel" can also cause a gecko to die.

Marcia - this is nice, right?

Robin - you just made me go back to 1988 when that particular drink did more them put grit in my mouth...:toilet: - hey where is the barfing smiley?
-Joyce

 

[KelliH]

Not exactly true...

From everything I have read, Leopard Geckos are from parts fo the middle east, Afghanstan as an example. They live in a desert environment for sure, but that in no way means sand. The tend to avoid sandy areas and live in rocky and sparse grassland environments, again avoiding sandy areas.

While it is true that some species (afganicus comes to mind off the top of my head) do not live in "sandy" areas, macularius in some areas have been documented as living around lots of sand.

Eublepharis macularius have a fairly large range, from Afghanistan, Northwestern India, and Pakistan and there have even been specimens collected in the eastern part of Iran.

Leopard geckos have been collected on a hard soil which contained a layer of sand covering the top. Here is a quote from J. A. Anderson's "A report
on the gecko Teratolepis fasciata (describing the same area where Eublepharis sp.) occur from The Journal of
Bombay Natural History Society from 1964. The collection
site was a deserted cemetery at Raj Malk, district Thatta on the
western edge of the Indus delta in Pakistan. "The terrain is flat with
an average elevation of less than 10 ft. above sea level. The soil is
loose, grey sand and silt."

It is believed that the founding stock of all of the captive bred leos in the US was caught in Sindh, Pakistan, which is in the southern part of the country.

Here is an image to show you what the area of Sindh looks like.
www.reliefonline.org/images/sindh_drought_2.jpg

Szczerbak and Golubev (1996) say that E. macularius lives..."on
clay-gravel soil covered by sand and abounding in bushes of
Zygophyllum."

 

[JBrune]

Don't know why I bring it up...

But has anyone seen moist hide or lay box substrate cause impaction? I ask because I had at one time used a peat moss as a substrate in a lay box and watched as a cricket go in with gecko following and sure enough the gecko came out eating the moss covered cricket and that worried me more then a mouth of sand. I just figure sand has got to be eaiser to pass then moss??
Just wondering.
Joyce

 

[KelliH]

But has anyone seen moist hide or lay box substrate cause impaction? I ask because I had at one time used a peat moss as a substrate in a lay box and watched as a cricket go in with gecko following and sure enough the gecko came out eating the moss covered cricket and that worried me more then a mouth of sand. I just figure sand has got to be eaiser to pass then moss??
Just wondering.

I have not had that happen Joyce but it very well could. There may only be a 1% chance, but it could happen. They can also become impacted if they accidentally ingest a piece of a paper towel when grabbing for a cricket. They can choke on their own shedding skin even. So there are always risks when keeping wild animals in captivity.

 

[PaulSage]

But has anyone seen moist hide or lay box substrate cause impaction? I ask because I had at one time used a peat moss as a substrate in a lay box and watched as a cricket go in with gecko following and sure enough the gecko came out eating the moss covered cricket and that worried me more then a mouth of sand. I just figure sand has got to be eaiser to pass then moss??
Just wondering.
Joyce

I use sphagnum moss in most of my humid hides, and occasionally I'll notice that there is some of the moss in the geckos' feces. Out of 200+ geckos I have on the sphagnum moss, I've never had get "impacted" by it. I suppose it's possible though.