hummm... *dent* what to do

[acpart]

It does seem to me that using a "proper" thermostat with the hovobator will make the temps more accurate, but it won't change the direction of the heat source. I assume I'm correct that the "wafer" in the hovobator not only regulates the temperature but also heats?

Aliza

 

[Gregg M]

Hey Aliza,
The waffer does not produce heat... The waffer is the thermostat... It is made with a temperature reactive metal coil that expands and contracts with the change of temperature...

It expands as the temp rises... When it get to a certain temp, it will hit a shut off button... When the temp goes down the waffer contracts and releases the button, sending electicity to the heating element and heating up the hovabator...

As you said, changing the thermostat does not change the fact that the heating element is above the eggs...

 

[KelliH]

I just have to say something about Hovabators... I used them for many years and hatched out hundreds of leopard geckos. They work perfectly as long as they are used in a fairly temp consistent area. In case anyone is wondering, I do not use Hovabators anymore. Not because they didn't work for me but because I wanted more professional reptile incubators. Also, I like having 4 Nature's Spirit incubators as opposed to 10 Hovabators!

Anyway I felt I had to post a little something in defense of the Hovabators; I don't want those that use them now to feel as if they have a crappy product because they aren't.

 

[robin]

if i have an incubator that i made with heat on the top versus the bottom or back does that mean my eggs will dent too? i mean because of the overhead heat? or if i put the heat on the back on the incubator will the eggs furthest away dent or the closest? i do not have a fan in my incubator circulating the air
i am trying to work out some even temp issues in my incubator and was wondering how the sim would work in these situations. :main_huh:

 

[RampantReptiles]

Lol That actually didnt make me feel any better Kelli but I appreciate the thought. I am glad I read this loooong thread before buying a SIM since I am a Hovabator user.
This is kind of a dumb idea but I guess I will say it anyways. If you are using a Hovabator would it help to put a heat source like heat tape/heat rope on the bottom of the container (while using a SIM) that is obviously thermostat/rheostat controlled. Is it just a situation of overhead heat or would under heat help? I am confused because I thought other incubators have overhead heat as well and not have problems or is that because of some kind of better heat circulation method?
Hmmm now that I think about it more adding another heat element just makes things more complicated and pretty much devalues the use of a hovabator in the first place... owell I thought I would throw some ideas out there anyways.
-Michelle

 

[janjgeckos]

I think it is the hight of the sims that is the problem with use in a hovabator, it is to close to the heating element so the air does heat up to fast. If some were offered shallower then they are now, to use with smaller reptile eggs I would buy some.
BTW I dont use a hovabator I use a converted wine cooler with enough room to fit atleast 10 of the current Sims.

 

[Imperial Geckos]

The solution to the hovabator and SIM problem is very simple..If you are using a hovabator you are better off not using a SIM. I am currently am using 3 hovabators to incubate my eggs and might need another one..all my eggs are doing just fine (i am incubating in Deli Cups w/ vermiculite)..please keep in mind I am not trying to make the SIM seem like a bad/useless product (i actually plan to try it out next year, when i plan to get new incubators)..Just how some products were not meant or dont work as well with another products..the SIM and hovabators is the same..the SIM is "new technology" and we now have "Reptile Specific Incubators" and the i believe "the SIM (a reptile specific egg incubation container) is meant to be used with reptile specific incubators..this is just my opinion..

 

[acpart]

Hey Aliza,
The waffer does not produce heat... The waffer is the thermostat... It is made with a temperature reactive metal coil that expands and contracts with the change of temperature...

It expands as the temp rises... When it get to a certain temp, it will hit a shut off button... When the temp goes down the waffer contracts and releases the button, sending electicity to the heating element and heating up the hovabator...

As you said, changing the thermostat does not change the fact that the heating element is above the eggs...

Thanks for clearing that up.

Aliza

 

[Gregg M]

if i have an incubator that i made with heat on the top versus the bottom or back does that mean my eggs will dent too? i mean because of the overhead heat? or if i put the heat on the back on the incubator will the eggs furthest away dent or the closest? i do not have a fan in my incubator circulating the air
i am trying to work out some even temp issues in my incubator and was wondering how the sim would work in these situations. :main_huh:

Robin, if you built an incubator from the ground up, why would you put a heating element on the top??? Why would you build an incubator that simulates radiant heat used to hatch bird eggs when you are incubating reptile eggs???

What you want in order to replicate natural incubation of reptiles is either side or bottom heat...

What some are failing to see also is that in order for a top heated incubator to heat up to the proper temp, the heating element needs to get much hotter... So basically if you want a hovabator to be at 84 degrees, the heating element will need to get up to 105 to 110 degrees... If it is heated from the bottom, the heating element only needs to be a few degrees warmer than the desired temp...

It is not the height of the SIM that is the issues... It is the combination of the SIM and a bird incubator...

Some people swear by the Hovabator but most people upgrade to a more proper incubator after a couple of seasons...

In my opinion the Hovabator is a very unstable incubation tool and the conditions need to be just right for it to operate correctly...

Like I said, the SIM is not the isssue... As many of you have seen it has hatched hundreds of reptiles so far and it only came out in August of 09... It has hatch enough albino carpet pythons to buy 3 homes in NYC...

I am happy this thread has been put out there... If this thread prompts even a few people to move away from hovabators and on to using proper reptile spacific incubators like NS, MR-148s, Reptipro-5000 or our incubators, its a good thing...

I am certain that many people will be pleased when our incubator is available... It will have a very reasonable price tag and will be a big step up from the hova...

 

[robin]

Robin, if you built an incubator from the ground up, why would you put a heating element on the top??? Why would you build an incubator that simulates radiant heat used to hatch bird eggs when you are incubating reptile eggs???

What you want in order to replicate natural incubation of reptiles is either side or bottom heat...

where does the bottom heat come from in nature? i mean sure the heat does not necessarily beat down directly on the eggs but very well could heat the ground or leaf litter from above

most pythons i have seen wrap their eggs even the tops of them. some pythons can contract their muscles to raise of loosen then them too cool them. other snakes will bask and wrap the eggs. many snakes lay the eggs and leave them. most geckos do not nest, they lay and leave.

when we incubate do we bury the eggs? or do we leave them partially uncovered?

What some are failing to see also is that in order for a top heated incubator to heat up to the proper temp, the heating element needs to get much hotter... So basically if you want a hovabator to be at 84 degrees, the heating element will need to get up to 105 to 110 degrees... If it is heated from the bottom, the heating element only needs to be a few degrees warmer than the desired temp...

ok i can see your point of heating from under but to get equal temp and humidity from back or side heat you would seem to have to have heating elements on all sides.

It is not the height of the SIM that is the issues... It is the combination of the SIM and a bird incubator...

nothing is wrong with hobavators at all, no reason to make them sound inferior and that people who use them are doing something wrong because they are not.
tell me what the proper reptile incubators are? is it homemade or a brand or what? because if there is such a thing as the perfect reptile incubator i want one for sure!

Some people swear by the Hovabator but most people upgrade to a more proper incubator after a couple of seasons...

i know many breeders that have used them in upwards of ten years and are quite large breeders

In my opinion the Hovabator is a very unstable incubation tool and the conditions need to be just right for it to operate correctly...

because the sim does not work in a hobavator it is now unsuitable? even though people have used it with success with many types of reptiles for many many years

Like I said, the SIM is not the isssue... As many of you have seen it has hatched hundreds of reptiles so far and it only came out in August of 09... It has hatch enough albino carpet pythons to buy 3 homes in NYC...

carpet python eggs are not hard to incubate gregg, no matter albino or not

I am happy this thread has been put out there... If this thread prompts even a few people to move away from hovabators and on to using proper reptile spacific incubators like NS, MR-148s, Reptipro-5000 or our incubators, its a good thing...

umm a reptile incubator? it's a wine chiller LOL

I am certain that many people will be pleased when our incubator is available... It will have a very reasonable price tag and will be a big step up from the hova...

how can you have a complete incubation system tested and such in a month?

 

[Gregg M]

Read carefully Robin... This is a big area of study for John and myself being that we have built a business on it... Our info also comes from field study and this info is also easily looked up and will back what I write...

where does the bottom heat come from in nature? i mean sure the heat does not necessarily beat down directly on the eggs but very well could heat the ground or leaf litter from above...?

Robin, it is geothermal waves or ambient ground temperature... During egg season the temps even just a couple of inches under the ground are very stable and never fluctuate more than two degrees over the course of months... The outside or above ground temp has no influence on subground temps during the season... These animals know exactly where to go and how deep to go in order to increase the chances of their eggs hatching...

most pythons i have seen wrap their eggs even the tops of them. some pythons can contract their muscles to raise of loosen then them too cool them.

They are actually generating heat evenly around the egg creating an abient temp... In the wild this sort of thing is almost always done underground or under leaf litter where again, the temps stay stable, out of the sun and absolutly never in the sun...

other snakes will bask and wrap the eggs. many snakes lay the eggs and leave them. most geckos do not nest, they lay and leave.

Robin, are seriously saying that reptiles take no care in where they lay their eggs??? Ho successful of a species can one be if it left its eggs out in the elements or out where predators can easily eat them... Snakes lay eggs in compost piles, rotted logs, or rodent burrows...

when we incubate do we bury the eggs? or do we leave them partially uncovered?.

PLEASE tell me you are not implying that reptiles burry their eggs half way in the dirt... LOL... This is something people do because #1 people need to see the eggs and #2 the conditions in an incubation substrate are generally not proper to burry eggs all the way although it can be done...

ok i can see your point of heating from under but to get equal temp and humidity from back or side heat you would seem to have to have heating elements on all sides..

As long as the substrate and air above is being heated equally there is no need to have it on all sides but the best heat would be from the bottom up... Just think, we learned this in grade school... Heat rises...

nothing is wrong with hobavators at all, no reason to make them sound inferior and that people who use them are doing something wrong because they are not.
tell me what the proper reptile incubators are? is it homemade or a brand or what? because if there is such a thing as the perfect reptile incubator i want one for sure!

Yes Hovabators work somewhat well but is it the best available incubator... No... It is the most inferior one... I have always thought that to be the case... Has nothing to do with the SIM...

i know many breeders that have used them in upwards of ten years and are quite large breeders

Name one...

because the sim does not work in a hobavator it is now unsuitable? even though people have used it with success with many types of reptiles for many many years

See my above post... People have used aqariums and fish tank heaters to incubate eggs succesfully for years... Would you suggest people go back to that method???

carpet python eggs are not hard to incubate gregg, no matter albino or not?

Got any photos of your carpet python hatchlings???

how can you have a complete incubation system tested and such in a month?

Easy!!! Its one of our methods that we have used for years...

 

[KelliH]

How about you guys just agree to disagree and move on... or maybe start a new thread on reptile egg incubation and continue the discussion there. It would make my evening much more pleasant... thanks.

 

[robin]

Robin, are seriously saying that reptiles take no care in where they lay their eggs??? Ho successful of a species can one be if it left its eggs out in the elements or out where predators can easily eat them... Snakes lay eggs in compost piles, rotted logs, or rodent burrows...

no it's instinctive but do you think that all laid eggs are laid under perfect conditions and that nothing might uncover them. i find heating coming from below actually a more unnatural way of heating. hot air does rise, so would that make the temps in the SIM higher that what the heating element is set at (if heating from the bottom). will the sim allow for 80 degree incubating?

PLEASE tell me you are not implying that reptiles burry their eggs half way in the dirt... LOL... This is something people do because #1 people need to see the eggs and #2 the conditions in an incubation substrate are generally not proper to burry eggs all the way although it can be done...

no i am not, i am actually making my point

As long as the substrate and air above is being heated equally there is no need to have it on all sides but the best heat would be from the bottom up... Just think, we learned this in grade school... Heat rises...

will eggs dry and dent the closer to the back heat or further away because the humidity might not be as high as far away from the heat?

Yes Hovabators work somewhat well but is it the best available incubator... No... It is the most inferior one... I have always thought that to be the case... Has nothing to do with the SIM...

somewhat?

Name one...

i won't name the person but i will see if they will post here.

See my above post... People have used aqariums and fish tank heaters to incubate eggs succesfully for years... Would you suggest people go back to that method???

if it works for them i do not care if they use an aquarium

Got any photos of your carpet python hatchlings???

i have not hatched carpet eggs however i know many people who have hatched them in hovas. i have seen jungles, irian jayas, and coastals hatch in them with ease. a very good friend of mine used to breed carpets

Easy!!! Its one of our methods that we have used for years...

k

 

[eric]

-Hovabators where made for birds, period. Everything about its concept is to benefit the incubation of bird eggs. With that said, that was for some of us, the only affordable manufactured incubator we could get. And we made it work. But we've come along way with how we keep our reptiles, now it's 2010, and in my opinion, the Hovabator is obsolete. We have so much information now that we don't have to settle with an avian incubator. Change isn't a bad thing.

-Whether using deli cups or the S.I.M. in a standard Hovabator, we're playing Russian roulette. There is a myriad of things that effect the Hovabator and how well it incubates, but none bigger than room temperature. Where the heat ring seats is problematic. Heat rises, that is its natural flow. The Hovabator uses a thermal push to heat. Pushing warm air down causes a suck effect pulling in room temperature air in through the air holes in the top of the lid. The air is then heated to the best of the heat rings ability and forced down and out of the exhaust holes at the bottom of the Hovabator. This to me is unacceptable. You'll never be able to completely control the temperature whether using the wafer thermostat or a high end thermostat. Without changing the Hovabators air flow concept, your gambling. For me, that's a gamble I'm not willing to take with my eggs.

-Now the solution! It's time to throw the Hovabator into the 21st century. The fix is quite simple. Two steps. First plugging the air holes to create a fixed environment.
With the air holes plugged you've created a variable free environment to hatch eggs. No more cold room temperatures playing havoc on your eggs.
Now for the second step. Disconnecting the heat ring and place it on the bottom of the Hovabator or you can use 11in flexwatt, either way works. If you've decided to keep the heat ring, use the clips that attached the ring on top to attach to the bottom of the Hovabator. An extra piece of wiring is needed to be able to attach the ring. If you've chosen to use flexwatt, attach it to the bottom of the Hovabator allowing room for the power cable to either run back up to the power source at the top of the Hovabator or drill a small hole at the bottom to extract the wires through. (More on the this set up with step by step photos later.) You've now turned your bird incubator into a mean reptile incubating machine!

-Heat is now being distributed evenly throughout the Hovabator, no cold drafts to effect eggs. Warm airs natural path to rise will heat the substrate first, creating optimal humidity within your deli cup or S.I.M. container. (NO DENTING! on good eggs obviously). With all the variables taken care of, you can set back and know that your eggs are being incubated the way reptile eggs are supposed to.

From my research, the Hovabator (standard) is the issue, not the S.I.M. containers. The deli cup containers showed the same problems the S.I.M.'s did, but on a smaller scale due to their smaller size and being buried in a damp substrate, kept them some what hydrated, but were prone to mold.

 

[KelliH]

Could the bottom vent holes be plugged up? Would that make a difference?

I guess some of the new Hovabators have those holes in the bottom but the older ones like what I used did not. There were no thermal air ones or whatever, just the ones with the fan and the ones without the fan as far as I can remember.

 

[herpencounter]

Could the bottom vent holes be plugged up? Would that make a difference?

I guess some of the new Hovabators have those holes in the bottom but the older ones like what I used did not. There were no thermal air ones or whatever, just the ones with the fan and the ones without the fan as far as I can remember.

:main_yes: Mine is about 10 years old (minimum). It Doesn't not have holes in the bottom.

 

[KelliH]

One more quick thing about Hovabators... keep in mind I am speaking about the older models that did not have any vent holes in the bottom... Look at how many Hovabators I used to have, and during the busiest part of the season, they were all full. I used them for years! At the time that photo was taken I was probally producing anywhere from 500-700 babies a year with a 90% + hatch rate, and that was using the wafer thermostat! I would never have used them if I had not had such great success hatching my gecko eggs out in them. I did not have any issues other than normal issues that happen when incubating large numbers of reptile eggs. I think the SIM is a neat product and I think it's awesome that there will now be a new economically priced incubator on the market for reptile breeders, but I am not going to sit here and let the Hovabator be written off as a crappy product because it just isn't.

 

[robin]

-Whether using deli cups or the S.I.M. in a standard Hovabator, we're playing Russian roulette.

russian roulette? the hobavator is a tried and true method of incubation for MANY years for MANY different species of reptiles. i think you are playing russuan roulette by using the S.I.M. if i remember correct it was released in august of 2009, so it is less than a year old. i am sure some success has come from it but as far as tried and true its got a long way to go.

 

[Landen]

One more quick thing about Hovabators... keep in mind I am speaking about the older models that did not have any vent holes in the bottom... Look at how many Hovabators I used to have, and during the busiest part of the season, they were all full. I used them for years! At the time that photo was taken I was probally producing anywhere from 500-700 babies a year with a 90% + hatch rate. I would never have used them if I had not had such great success hatching my gecko eggs out in them. I did not have any issues other than normal issues that happen when incubating large numbers of reptile eggs. I think the SIM is a neat product and I think it's awesome that there will now be a new economically priced incubator on the market for reptile breeders, but I am not going to sit here and let the Hovabator be written off as a crappy product because it just isn't.

I will have to agree with kelli, I hatch 90-95% of my eggs that are laid and I'm using deli cups and vermiculite. I think the SIM can be great for the right person or incubator. Sounds to me like they just are not very compatible. If that's the case use the good ol way with the hovabator's or buy a new incubator. There's never going to be a cure all for everyone's application.

 

[Doubelminttwin]

Has the OP figured out the problem yet? (sorry got lost in all the incubator talk ) I'm going to assume no, but if I'm wrong sorry lol

We had one egg look as translucent as yours and it was when there was to much water. Honestly the incubators sound complicated. We put our eggs in a tupper wear (sp?)container in a ten gallon, a 60 watt heat light and used vermiculite. We had some moisture issues at first but we just played it by sight. We put a fish thermometer in the container and just kept an eye on it. No ventilation in the container we just opened it every few days to let in some fresh air. I know thats not to helpful because you have an incubator but if nothing else you could try that while you work on the correct levels for your incubator. Once we figured it out it worked awesome.

I wouldn't give up on them if they are dented, just keep playing with the balance, but definetly watch out for too much moisture. The eggs shouldn't be sitting in water, it just has to be humid (easy right )