Has is been proven that blizzard eclipse is NOT or IS the same as Tremper eclipse ??

[robin]

Yes pretty much jungle result of line breeding abberants,Stripes result of line breeding jungles.I will admit the reverse has me a little on how it was created but i still know it's not simple recessive coz of the results from there breeding i've seen but it looks to be kind of both bold stripe and dorsal stripe together.

ding ding ding wrong!!!

 

[okapi]

Jungles randomly popped out of RT's whole sale operation (C.R.A.P.) when he noticed that one female had an irregular pattern and when bred to her father (which was just because RT produced more females than males, not because he wanted to see if he could replicate the pattern) she produced hatchlings with random patterns. RT named them jungles and started linebreeding them. The mindset was "if they can do it with corn snakes, I can do it with leos too" and out of his jungles he produced some which had jungle patterns in which the dark pigment tended to stay away from the center of the backs. He linebred these and ended up getting stripes, which have two dark areas down their back with a lighter stripe down the center and often down the tail. Then after linebreeding stripes for a while he hatched out some which had a reverse/negative image of the stripes. They had a darker stripe down the back where all the dark pigment was centered and lighter colors on either side. He called these reverse stripes because it was a reverse image of the stripe. Then he found that by breeding stripes to reverse stripes he could produce "patternless stripes" in which both the stripe patterns cancel eachother out leaving no dark pigment on the back with a stripe/jungly tail pattern. He used these to create the APTORs and RAPTORs.

As for stripes being recessive: I dont know either way. Ive always learned that they are polygentic and have been linebred to the point where they act recessive. But then it could also be a single gene that controls the lining up of pigment in a specific pattern which is recessive that other polygentic factors try to cover up, distorting it into making jungles and bandeds. Then linebreeding could of removed these polygentic "anti-stripe" traits until we get to the stripe gene. Over all I find this thread to be very intresting, and Im glad it went from eclipse debate to stripe debate. The stripe debate gets my mind going more so than the eclipse debate. :main_thumbsup:

 

[robin]

Then he found that by breeding stripes to reverse stripes he could produce "patternless stripes" in which both the stripe patterns cancel eachother out leaving no dark pigment on the back with a stripe/jungly tail pattern. He used these to create the APTORs and RAPTORs.

it's called adding hypo tangerines to the line which cause the geckos to be "patternless" appearing (they are born with a stripe or reversed stripe that hypos out to have overall yellow,orange color) as adults. not the stripe and reverse stripe canceling each other out.

 

[okapi]

do you honestly think a jungle is not the same gene at work as the stripe? jungle, stripe, reversed stripe it's all the same gene

How did I miss this post? This goes along with what I just said above :main_yes:

 

[robin]

How did I miss this post? This goes along with what I just said above :main_yes:

agreed.
now how can, if the gene is NOT recessive, one make banded hets and breed those and produce stripes or jungles?

 

[okapi]

agreed.
now how can, if the gene is NOT recessive, one make banded hets and breed those and produce stripes or jungles?

Well, the main idea has always been that all the "on and off switches" of the polygentic trait are pretty much fixed due to linebreeding, but with just looking at the outcome of producing a morph from only THREE genes (like say a giant blazing blizzard) the chance of breeding a TH to a TH and getting a giant blazing blizzard is very small. If you apply this knowlege to stripes, it would be near impossible to get stripes again after one outbreeding unless ALOT of linebreeding was done afterwards to get back to the stripe trait.

If it is one single gene that causes pigment to line up down the center of the back if expressed then it makes sense. A few other genes that are partially dominant over it would distort it enough to make it jungle instead of stripe.

 

[okapi]

it's called adding hypo tangerines to the line which cause the geckos to be "patternless" appearing (they are born with a stripe or reversed stripe that hypos out to have overall yellow,orange color) as adults. not the stripe and reverse stripe canceling each other out.

I do believe, based on what Ive heard from a friend, that RT did include a trait that hypos out pattern into the APTOR project (probably "super tangerine"). Indyluckyleos bought a reduced patterned carrot head carrot tail albino from RT that hypoed out completely and looks just like an APTOR now. But from the results of people breeding (R)aptors to patternless stripes the facts tend to point to patternless stripes being the cause of the patternlessness. I believe groovygeckos is one of the people working on outbreeding raptors with patternless stripes.

 

[robin]

Well, the main idea has always been that all the "on and off switches" of the polygentic trait are pretty much fixed due to linebreeding, but with just looking at the outcome of producing a morph from only THREE genes (like say a giant blazing blizzard) the chance of breeding a TH to a TH and getting a giant blazing blizzard is very small. If you apply this knowlege to stripes, it would be near impossible to get stripes again after one outbreeding unless ALOT of linebreeding was done afterwards to get back to the stripe trait.

If it is one single gene that causes pigment to line up down the center of the back if expressed then it makes sense. A few other genes that are partially dominant over it would distort it enough to make it jungle instead of stripe.

personally i don't think RT knows what the giant gene is or is playing dumb. personally i think he added wild caught subspecies blood into the giant line. yeah i know that at the time in which he produced the giants he said he had not introduced any new bloodlines into his stock. me this this be a lie

 

[robin]

eh but i also doubt about 50% of what he claims anyhow

 

[GroovyGeckos.com]

Robin, the Patternless Stripes (same as the "Aptor") really are another pattern all in themselves. It is like an aberrant stripe or reverse stripe, but not quite a stripe or reverse stripe. They do not prove out the same way a regular stripe/reverse str would.

With that said. I have taken both "proven" recessive patterns and bred them together. I mean Stripe(red) and "Aptor". All I got from them were Stripe/Jungle, non-banded "multi hets".

On another project(like Alberto`s, and his results were the same) I bred Stripe to Reverse Str. and made the "Patternless Red Stripes", which looked so much like Aptors, that we just went ahead, and bred PRS to Aptor. I hatched nothing but Patternless, and Reverse Stripe-ish geckos from that.

Patternless Stripes have even created Eclipse/Raptor, when bred to eachother, or to Raptors, and this means that "Patternless" is responsible for the eye mutation. I see no other way, that all of the "Aptors", even "het" Aptors, sold before the ruby eyed version, made Raptors for people. I was told my Aptor was a "possible het", but my "het Aptor" was NOT het for Raptor. He just assumed, and the father was only an Aptor, so "ummm no they`re only het for Aptor"

I think any gecko that even carries the "Patternless Stripe" gene can make them, so RT`s answer to Kelli`s question (pretty much along with that whole chat) was c.r.a.p..

If stripe or "aptor" is recessive it is only to the dominant banded genes, but these genes seem to act co-dominant to eachother. IMO Reverse Stripe is a "super" Stripe, Patternless is a "super" Reverse Stripe, and I believe "Eclipse" can only happen once you have reverse stripe/patternless stripe genes.

About this thread: Well RT has made the Diablo Blanco, if they were the same it should not exist. Oh and one is genetic, the other randomly occuring in Blizzards. That means they are not the same to me.:main_thumbsup:

 

[eyelids]

About this thread: Well RT has made the Diablo Blanco, if they were the same it should not exist. Oh and one is genetic, the other randomly occuring in Blizzards. That means they are not the same to me.:main_thumbsup:

I agree with that. The solid eyes in Blizzards is not recessive and most likely not co-dom/dom. Just a random mutation... I think it is way cool nonetheless. Mainly because it can occur in the first generation so it's possible to outcross say a 'Eclipse' Blizzard 66% het Bell to a Mack Snow Bell. Yeah I'm doing that cross hoping to make a solid eyed Mack Snow Bell... The double hets are just an added bonus! :main_thumbsup:

 

[robin]

Robin, the Patternless Stripes (same as the "Aptor") really are another pattern all in themselves. It is like an aberrant stripe or reverse stripe, but not quite a stripe or reverse stripe. They do not prove out the same way a regular stripe/reverse str would.

With that said. I have taken both "proven" recessive patterns and bred them together. I mean Stripe(red) and "Aptor". All I got from them were Stripe/Jungle, non-banded "multi hets".

On another project(like Alberto`s, and his results were the same) I bred Stripe to Reverse Str. and made the "Patternless Red Stripes", which looked so much like Aptors, that we just went ahead, and bred PRS to Aptor. I hatched nothing but Patternless, and Reverse Stripe-ish geckos from that.

Patternless Stripes have even created Eclipse/Raptor, when bred to eachother, or to Raptors, and this means that "Patternless" is responsible for the eye mutation. I see no other way, that all of the "Aptors", even "het" Aptors, sold before the ruby eyed version, made Raptors for people. I was told my Aptor was a "possible het", but my "het Aptor" was NOT het for Raptor. He just assumed, and the father was only an Aptor, so "ummm no they`re only het for Aptor"

I think any gecko that even carries the "Patternless Stripe" gene can make them, so RT`s answer to Kelli`s question (pretty much along with that whole chat) was c.r.a.p..

If stripe or "aptor" is recessive it is only to the dominant banded genes, but these genes seem to act co-dominant to eachother. IMO Reverse Stripe is a "super" Stripe, Patternless is a "super" Reverse Stripe, and I believe "Eclipse" can only happen once you have reverse stripe/patternless stripe genes.

About this thread: Well RT has made the Diablo Blanco, if they were the same it should not exist. Oh and one is genetic, the other randomly occuring in Blizzards. That means they are not the same to me.:main_thumbsup:

dan ill reply later. it's just too damn early to start talking genetics LOL

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Why can't I compare the two? For the record, we used to work with all kinds of cornsnake morphs, and I remember hatching some stripes that were totally awesome looking and some that were not great examples. I strongly feel that it is the same with striped leos. sometimes you get some that are poor examples of the morph but it does not mean they are not the morph. If that makes sense.

My comment wasn't meant to say simply you can't compare the two, but rather that it's a poor comparison. A Stripe cornsnake is striped, there are no bands on a Stripe cornsnake. Yet you're comparing a Banded gecko with a smidgen of Stripe on its tail, which IMO is far from the same thing. Really, the closest comparison you could get are the Cubed-Stripes, but the "Cubes" aren't saddles, they're the base color. It has a normal pattern with a small aberrant band on it's back and it's being called a Stripe...I do not agree with that. It's like me saying that because my BP has a slight stripe on its tail, it's a Stripe (which of course is not the case).

We are all just going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

 

[robin]

My comment wasn't meant to say simply you can't compare the two, but rather that it's a poor comparison. A Stripe cornsnake is striped, there are no bands on a Stripe cornsnake. Yet you're comparing a Banded gecko with a smidgen of Stripe on its tail, which IMO is far from the same thing. Really, the closest comparison you could get are the Cubed-Stripes, but the "Cubes" aren't saddles, they're the base color. It has a normal pattern with a small aberrant band on it's back and it's being called a Stripe...I do not agree with that. It's like me saying that because my BP has a slight stripe on its tail, it's a Stripe (which of course is not the case).

We are all just going to have to agree to disagree on the matter.

OH shut up already

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

OH shut up already

Robin, you have a big attitude problem. I have no idea why anyone puts up with you. :main_thumbsdown:

No one can have a nice discussion without you being foul. I believe you need to take your own advice. If we had the "Ignore" feature on this forum, I will be happy to implement it on you.

 

[KelliH]

I'll look into adding an Ignore function. There is probably a hack for that somewhere, I'll try to find it.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'll look into adding an Ignore function. There is probably a hack for that somewhere, I'll try to find it.

I'd appreciate that very much, Kelli!

 

[BalloonzForU]

There is an ingnore feature, in the user cp. It's under Buddy / Ignore List

 

[robin]

i never use the ignore button. nobody gets under my skin enough for me to ignore them. honestly, i could care less if you or anyone else likes me or not. it's not like this is some sorta popularity contest or something.
actually i am a very nice person to the people i like and care for. also it is not an attitude problems it is just you

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

There is an ingnore feature, in the user cp. It's under Buddy / Ignore List

Awesome! Thanks, Felicia! :main_thumbsup: