Anyone not breeding enigmas for 2010?

[robin]

Well that doesn't really prove that she thinks differently now but i'm not saying she doesn't. I just can't see she does when no new information has came about in reference to the problems of the enigma.

To me any percentage of hatchlings with issues is too much, whether it 10% or 100%!
Thats just me!

This topic is one reason people don't care for me! I am not afraid to speak my mind about what I think!

the findings were enigmas have the same exact brain as a normal leopard gecko. no physical abnormalities to the brain (at first there was thought to be a physical abnormality but there wasnt) so with these findings you would think that enigmas should be able to be outcrossed.

 

[robin]

Well that doesn't really prove that she thinks differently now but i'm not saying she doesn't. I just can't see she does when no new information has came about in reference to the problems of the enigma.

To me any percentage of hatchlings with issues is too much, whether it 10% or 100%!
Thats just me!

This topic is one reason people don't care for me! I am not afraid to speak my mind about what I think!

i am not afraid to speak my mind either. OH trust me on this young one!

but ok so any hatchlings with "issues" are unacceptable? if you have a slow starter or maybe one with a slight deformity, maybe an eye crinkle or a tail kink do you or would you cull it? would you give it away or sell it as a "pet" only?

 

[Khrysty]

the findings were enigmas have the same exact brain as a normal leopard gecko. no physical abnormalities to the brain (at first there was thought to be a physical abnormality but there wasnt) so with these findings you would think that enigmas should be able to be outcrossed.

Seems to me that that IS a monumental find. That gives hope to the morph, after all! Those of you that are working with them, if you can outcross the issues you'd be my favorite people ever :main_yes:

 

[KelliH]

It's true, the study that has been done on the Enigmas has only proven that the name of the morph is a fitting one.
There are absolutely ZERO differences in the brains of Enigmas vs. non Enigmas. The only other thing that it could possibly be is some sort of issue in the nerves of the animal, and the way signals are sent from the brain to the body. In order to continue the study and focus on this aspect it would cost a lot of money. We have hope though that a grad student will continue the work, but we have not heard anything else on the issue recently. I will be sure and update.

BTW, I do feel that all Enigmas have the same "issue" for lack of a better word. Some of them show very subtle, almost unnoticable signs of it, some of them show more severe signs. This is part of what makes them an Enigma; the way they look is tied into the behavior. I do strongly feel that outcrossing is always a good thing and that in time we can lessen the amount of "problem" animals, however at this time it is a crap shoot. The majority of the Enigmas I produce have the more subtle signs (most so subtle that a non experienced breeder would not notice) BUT different factors involving stress can cause the signs to increase or decrease accordingly.

I will always work with Enigmas. I think the positives outweigh the negatives at this point. I have seen NO evidence that Enigmas have any propensity to be weaker animals at all, no more than any other leopard gecko. Even the ones I have had that were more "Enigma-ish" have had no problems eating and growing. So there's my $0.2!

 

[ang3l3s]

Since i saw them i loved them, what they did and how they looked. I bought 2 females got them up to weight for breeding and one went from 56grams to 34 grams, She tries to bite and cannot target her food, the other started spinning and does not eat as much as b4 i bred her. I'm not the only one who has given up but i have a friend who if they give me a male , i will give it one more shot but those 2 females are now special needs pets and retired. I think if that doesn't work i will concentrate on the sub species as cleaning up a lil mess(every other gecko morph) is easier than cleaning up a big mess (the engima).

 

[robin]

i personally think that over the past few years the enigmas have gotten "better". now it may only be moderately or slightly but i think as a whole they have. i have hope yet for them and will continue to work with them. i think anyone who chooses to work with enigmas should also be prepared to not sell "pet quality" or even give them away but rather cull them. to me that is the harsh truth. i wish i had the link to Gregg M's post on a possible reason for this "enigma-ish" behavior but it's a good read. maybe someone can find the link

 

[justindh1]

Young one! LOL! I am still on the young side yes, 27, but that has nothing to do with this. I guess I can call you OLD one!

Until we know what is goin on with the morph, which should of be figured out before there release and is a completly different subject, I will not get any at all! As for knowing whether it can be outcrossed or not, that is still unknown until their issues are figured out 100%. The problem that arises now is that now there are thousands of geckos out there with "issues" that are in the stock now. Thats what really sucks about this morph. Too many people jumped on it and bred them into their stock.

I'm glad some things are getting figured out but as it stands right now, its all still a mystery. I believe that the morph should not be given up on because they had nothing to do with the situation that they are in. It should be figured out to help them out.

I agree that outcrossing is always a good thing to do but that is good in almost all aspect of breeding in order to bring new strong genetics in.

 

[robin]

so do you think people who breed them are ethically wrong? are you morally better for not breeding them?

how do you think people will find more about them without breeding them? and out of these thousands of enigmas out there with these "issues" why do not people cull them?

do you or anyone you know have $100,000+ to pay for someone to study them? is anyone you know willing to GIVE up most likely a couple of hundred enigmas and normals and siblings to whomever studys them? hell no! so if anyone is going to find anything out its the people who continue to work with these animals

it's is not OLD one it is WISE one! :grin2:

 

[KelliH]

I agree that outcrossing is always a good thing to do but that is good in almost all aspect of breeding in order to bring new strong genetics in.

Yeah that's why I said above that outcrossing is always a good thing. I just personally believe that in the case of the Enigmas there is no solution as simple as outcrossing and I want to be careful and make sure I don't convey the message that I did initially, which was that this is something that can be solved with outcrossing. I don't feel that way any longer.

 

[Khrysty]

so do you think people who breed them are ethically wrong? are you morally better for not breeding them?

how do you think people will find more about them without breeding them? and out of these thousands of enigmas out there with these "issues" why do not people cull them?

do you or anyone you know have $100,000+ to pay for someone to study them? is anyone you know willing to GIVE up most likely a couple of hundred enigmas and normals and siblings to whomever studys them? hell no! so if anyone is going to find anything out its the people who continue to work with these animals

it's is not OLD one it is WISE one! :grin2:

Wise one, only the enigma fairy should breed these geckos until they're "fit" for us lowly humans to breed. Silly..

 

[robin]

so you say stop breeding them altogether?

should no human on this earth work with them?

 

[Khrysty]

so you say stop breeding them altogether?

should no human on this earth work with them?

Oh geez, no. That was sarcasm, sorry :/

All I meant is that OF COURSE people should work with them. That's the only way we're going to get the issues out. But it should be, as people have already mentioned, breeders who are experienced and committed to the task.

 

[robin]

Yeah that's why I said above that outcrossing is always a good thing. I just personally believe that in the case of the Enigmas there is no solution as simple as outcrossing and I want to be careful and make sure I don't convey the message that I did initially, which was that this is something that can be solved with outcrossing. I don't feel that way any longer.

kelli, disagree. i think outcrossing them will strengthen them, yeah they may never be quite "normal" but i think we can possibly breed the more severe characteristics out.

 

[justindh1]

so do you think people who breed them are ethically wrong? are you morally better for not breeding them?

how do you think people will find more about them without breeding them? and out of these thousands of enigmas out there with these "issues" why do not people cull them?

do you or anyone you know have $100,000+ to pay for someone to study them? is anyone you know willing to GIVE up most likely a couple of hundred enigmas and normals and siblings to whomever studys them? hell no! so if anyone is going to find anything out its the people who continue to work with these animals

it's is not OLD one it is WISE one! :grin2:

Well Robin if you were that WISE you would of seen in my post that I believe that this morph should not be given up on. It should be figured out what is wrong with them. They are not the ones who did this to them. You are putting words in my mouth that I didn't say! :main_thumbsdown:

Where do I say that people who bred them are ethically wrong? The question of ethics went out the window when the morph was released early in the first place without knowing anything about it!

Where do I say that I am morally better then people who bred the enigma because I don't?

I said in the very first post that I wish someone can do something to help this morph! It needs to be done and should of been done long time ago!

Everything should of been done before the release of the morph!

 

[BSM]

So far my enigma experience hasn't been the greatest, out of the 3 enigma i had 1 of them went completely out of whack and wouldn't eat and was always spinning and died. Now another one seems to be doing the same thing and wouldnt eat anything offered and spins alot. The last enigma the albino blizzard enigma doesnt have any problems and eats anything offered but to me it would seem pointless to breed an animal and then just hope the offspring dont have the syndrome even though the father doesnt.
When i was at an reptile expo one of the breeders there had a little discussion on enigmas and he said this to me why would i want to make a orange gecko that some of them will be messed up and i cant guarantee to anyone that the babies wouldn't any problems. I personally agree with him and so im not breeding enigmas at all even if i end up keeping my male

Bryan

 

[KelliH]

I think in the case of Enigmas it just comes down to personal choice as far as if you want to work with them. Something to keep in mind is that you may produce babies that have to be culled. If you cannot handle this reality then you certainly should not choose to work with Enigmas. However, any leopard gecko breeder that produces a decent amount of babies each year will have to put some down at some point, so I guess if this is something you cannot handle you should not be a breeder in any case.

 

[FloridaNature]

However, any leopard gecko breeder that produces a decent amount of babies each year will have to put some down at some point, so I guess if this is something you cannot handle you should not be a breeder in any case.

I know this is a reality and must be done.....but how is it done?
What is the most humane way? The most "popular" way?

 

[KelliH]

I know this is a reality and must be done.....but how is it done?
What is the most humane way? The most "popular" way?

I think that might be something that you would need to discuss with your vet... I prefer not to post the details on the forum. Anyone else is free to chime in though.

 

[got spots?]

I see this thread turning into a fire fight tbh. It is true I believe in many many MANY years it will be bred almost out. But as said I can't see that happening for at least 10-15 years at the earliest. I think this thread should be closed IMHO.

 

[Gregg M]

I know this is a reality and must be done.....but how is it done?
What is the most humane way? The most "popular" way?

We have numerous monitor lizards here that will not think twice about eating a few leos that failingl to thrive...

It might not be the most popular way of culling but it is my way... It is very quick, humane, and the culled gecko is not going to waste...

It really is no different than feeding off rodents or any other prey item...