Anyone not breeding enigmas for 2010?
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ILoveGeckos14
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Hmm that is interesting, I found a mutation in mice called dancer mice (Dc) which sounded a lot like enigmas. It causes varying amount of spinning, head tilts and unsteady gait. Part of the outward appearance of the mice is a patch of white fur aka absence of melanin on the head--it sounded very similar to the enigmas head markings. The only thing that ended up different was the fact that the inner ear was responsible for the behavior. It is a lethal semi-dominant muation in which the homozygous babies either do not make it to birth or die shortly there after. If we were able to determine if this was the case with enigmas it could help us find mutations in other captive inbred populations that have shown similar behavior as lethal semi dominant mutations are more rare I believe.
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KelliH
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That was one of the things I discovered also when i did some googling early on. The Enigmas however have no inner ear abnormalities so whatever it is that makes them Enigmas has nothing to do with that.
KelliH
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If you find out who has it please let me know. After all these years of breeders working with the Spider mutation, this is the first i have ever heard of there being a homozygous one that has been proven to be such.
No need to apologize to me brother, you're preaching to the choir.
dprince
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Amen. I mean sheesh - look at my avatar. Coolest. Gecko. EVER. :main_cool3:
thestack510
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It's off topic a bit, but Debbie I love how the Leo in your avatar has four circles on it's head that form a cross. That's awesome.
dprince
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Thanks Ken. That's Kismet, the world's first super snow bell enigma. :smitten: My friend Am Wu took his portrait at a show (where I took him to be photographed for a leopard gecko book) and entered it in a reptile photo contest. Unfortunately, it didn't win, but Am gave me the portrait anyway.
I too have heard of a super for the spider but it looks the same but produces 100% spiders when bred to a normal. Well both the enigma and the spider were produced from a lot of inbreeding so it is no wonder they have the same problems.But Look at the woma, it is pretty normal but the super has never survived. And while we are at it why doesn't the crested gecko even have an albino when the original population that came legally here was only like 200, that's a lot of inbreeding yet no enigma/spider problems in any of the morphs.
KelliH
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Incorrect... I believe the first spider ball was imported as a WC from Africa.
The Enigma morph was a spontaneous thing. That's how most of these morphs occur, that is why they are known as random gene mutations.
Yes it was imported from but last i checked no one really knows what's done in Africa, hell there are probably so many morphs that they only release at a time to us since they got into it and who's to say how these new morphs are made? We can't be the only ones inbreeding!! The Carmel has constant kinks and the super woma can't even survive. The cinny super has weird head structure.....
Kevin from NERD established the morph in 1999, that's a mighty long time of inbreeding which could be the cause but only Kevin would know if his original female had these traits to begin with but let's look at the similarities between the enigma which we know has a great possibility of being created from inbreeding and the spider.
Both have the wobble/head tilt/neuro problems.
There has been many speculations as to why the spider acts the way it does and some say since there was only 1 female expressing the phenotype that we now know today as the spider... well that's a lot of inbreeding to make all the spiders we have now especially when so many were trying to make a super.
How many animals that we know today that has issues like the enigma or spider?? It seems only pure breds or animals that have not been outcrossed have issues so it would only make sense to assume that these traits are from inbreeding.
Who's to say the spider is not a spontaneous thing?? 1 thing for sure it is a mutation.
KelliH
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That's my whole point... these morphs are random genetic mutations. They are not "created" by inbreeding in most cases.
From what I recall from the late 90's the original Spider was imported as a wild caught adult.
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Gregg M
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I do not think it is safe to assume that inbreeding is the cause of these issues especially when you are talking about a dominant gene mutation... There is no need for inbreeding when the mutation is expressed in the first outcrossed generation...
If anything, you would see this much more in recessive morphs... The fact is that reptiles are not as prone to problems from inbreeding as higher life forms are... It would take MANY generations of inbreeding before any problems pop up...
It is safe to assume that the genetic defect that causes the pattern and colour deformation in Enigmas and Spiders is the same genetic defect that causes them to "act funny" especially being that the non Enigma and non Spider sibs show no signs of the syndrome...
herpencounter
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+1
+1
And definitely. I cant remember what the name is, but it is when an allele controls more then one thing ie a allele controlling eye color and how long its legs are... But the enigma is freaking crazy! Eye color, body color, body pattern, and their issues lol.
I was just reading an article on this a few months ago and cant for the life of me remember the article or, what the term for this thing is....................................................... If I find it I promise to post it lol.
J.
I never said that they were not random but since we r talking about the enigma,i remember u saying that it was random but it must have came about from quite a bit of inbreeding as u also had bells that had similar traits.
I thought we established the spider was from Africa and NERD established the morph ?But like i said ....who knows what's really going down in Africa???
the spider was a WILD caught animal, this wild caught animal was just a random mutation (in the wild it would be an inferior animal because it would stand out more so than normals. plus the fact it seems to have weak genes). when nerd got it they bred the animal to find out the genetics and made more spiders. over in africa there is not a huge breeder of ball pythons. they most they will do is go and collect the eggs out of the lay spots and finish incubating them so they can hatch them out and ship them off the next day or so to places like the US. the more odd animals are kept in a different batch than the normal and sold to the highest bidder. sometimes wild caught adults are captured, normals and "odd" looking ones. so you see these are random mutations that popped out in wild populations, not some breeding facility where they breed generation after generation together of captive bred animals. when these random mutations occur there are not "hets" that made it, it just spontaneously popped out in a wild population. the reason why? no one knows, it just happens.
bells do not have any of the same traits as enigmas. the only thing close to anything is the fact that bell albinos have very sensitive eyes so they will keep their eyes shut a lot.
i am sure some animals have had some similar things like this but not this random mutation. i have heard of trempers and sht and so on and so fourth that may have at one time exhibited a characteristic or two that enigmas do but that does not mean they have the same gene mutation or even anything related to it.
Totally agree but to clarify the spider was inbred to try to make the super .... not to make more spiders , guess when the spider first came out they thought there would be a super? But did the WC from Africa have the neuro problems or did it come about after???
I was just reiterating what i read regarding the possibilities of the spiders neuro problems but since there appearance must be correlated with the neuro problems and since the enigma suffers from the same ailments and was created from inbreeding then it must be possible that spiders might have been created from inbreeding as well??
That's what i'm saying!!! Thanks Gregg
From radio talk and the bp forums i have heard/red that they (Africa) have quite a market down there and we have no idea just how many morphs are really out there or being released as they control what comes out or is revealed. They saw how much money was to be made .
huge market there no doubt but not as modern and contemporary as people might think.
mindgamer8907
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I'm a bit new to the world of reptile breeding, but fairly well equipped in the field of genetics. It seems that people are neglecting specific aspects of genetic theory in this discussion.
My primary concern is that the practice of "line-breeding" is shown to produce stronger exhibitions of any number of "line-bred" traits. Unfortunately, "line-breeding" is incest. While, genetically, there is nothing wrong with a few generations of incestuous breeding, it should be noted that the propensity for random genetic mutation or expression of seemingly unrelated genetic anomalies (these have been known to include sterility, neurological problems/mental problems, and general deformity in almost every species that has ever been extensively line bred, including the old British royals...poking fun UK folk, no malice here... just saying I'm fairly certain one of the Tudors had an extra toe or finger). What this means for the enigma is that eventually the trait would/could have surfaced without so much as a single human intervention, but that is almost impossible to prove without taking every wild leo....everywhere.... and then... subsequently breeding them to tempt fate. What this does mean is that until that happens, the genome project processes every single neucleotide on the gecko's genetics (and their according traits), or someone produces a theory (notice the terminology here) of out-breading the trait (which lucky for us is dominant) that produces 100% testable syndrome-free enigmas there is no way to know whether the inbreeding is to blame.
My second concern is that people claim the trait to be pleiotropic. I do not in any way deny this possibility but will offer several points that have made me hesitant about that fact, but first and foremost among these is the lack of a prior link. The major hallmark of enigma syndrome is the "slowness," "circling," apparent deficiency in vision, and of course the enigma physical features), but as far as I have read, heard, and researched there is an utter lack of any concurrence between the patterns/lack thereof exhibited and the "mental speed" or "balance capabilities" of any one gecko. The only link I have seen or heard of is that of the enigmas and the light sensitivity of the albinos. If I understand correctly, it seems that due to the nature of the circling as opposed to the general albino distaste for and disorientation due to light (which I understand to be two entirely different behaviors; running/walking in circles as opposed to writhing in agony and/or scampering into any shade possible) it seems that these two behaviors cannot be likened easily. When the eye-sight issue is mentioned I see some correlation in that perhaps optically, the enigma operates better in darkness. Now here's where I have little more than to speculate: perhaps the enigma's eyes cannot see in lighted conditions, the same way one is disoriented in the presence of a flash-bang grenade.... It is commonly held that staring into the sun will make you go blind, which it will, this is due to the path the light takes and how the cones and rods in the back of the eye tend to get all burnt out when a laser is sent directly into them. Maybe I'm blowing smoke out my *## but isn't it possible that this generally nocturnal animal might develop a genetic mutation that has become adept at living in nothing but darkness. The circling/disorientation/poor eye-sight may fit in this case, as the symptoms of exposure to excessive light. This has probably been suggested before, I don't know, my attempt at a shot in the dark. "But wait..." you say, "is he suggesting that the traits are linked by the gene?" No... not entirely, I suggest that if these traits are linked, then this is a likely explanation. To return from my hypothetical, tangenital vacation, unless said flight of my fancy is to be taken as fact, then I can find no link between this behavior and its appearance as exemplified in other morphs to support the Peiotropy theory. Unless of course... one is to travel into.... the world of tomorrow! Yes, it is likely (as theorized by some geneticists today) that while a single random genetic mutation changing a single attribute (pattern, size, manna, etc.) will yield only change in that attribute, the sub code (or activation code) may have a parallel mutation or even a dormant mutation, that has occurred of its own accord. This "sub-code" mutation (because I have disabused myself of the correct terminology) only activates its own activation in the presence of a specific allele, even if the allele does not normally exist within the animal's genetic code and must mutate into existence at that spot on that chromosome. If this is the case out-breeding could fix the syndrome, unless the "activation" mutation is dominant (as all alleles are subject to hierarchy). The evidence does not seem to exist to link the pigmentation patterns of a gecko is any more important than the skin pigmentation of a human in determining the mental capacity or neurological problems of said creature. To reiterate, the possibility exists, but other than the exclusively Gay... oh wait... I meant enigma population of the syndrome, the correlation between the syndrome and the enigma gene is greatly weakened. If this were the case, all enigmas would necessarily present the syndrome. While Kelli mentioned something to the effect that all enigmas are a bit slow, it would appear the full syndrome then is the effect of some other part of their constitution exacerbating the otherwise more minor problems. Perhaps, as I mentioned, the light theory is a bit more valid?
Again, I'm new, I only have a baby (a fast grower too) as a pet right now, but I'd encourage anyone breeding out enigmas to follow breeding standards as that is the only way to attempt to prove the genetic validity of a syndrome-less enigma until the super gene charting tech tells us anyway. Yes, I too am not confident about breeding out the ick in this gene-pool, I hope for the enigma, but don't expect miracles, as everything I've written prior to this sentence has forshadowed. It is very possible but seems unlikely.
On a side note, I am sorry if I came off as condescending, I don't mean to at all... it's late, idk why I'm still awake and again, I have yet to finish my essay for class.... any major complaints/questions about my assertions, please let me know (here or PM) I would be quite embarrassed by being thoroughly wrong but that is a small price to pay for truth, please correct me.
My primary concern is that the practice of "line-breeding" is shown to produce stronger exhibitions of any number of "line-bred" traits. Unfortunately, "line-breeding" is incest. While, genetically, there is nothing wrong with a few generations of incestuous breeding, it should be noted that the propensity for random genetic mutation or expression of seemingly unrelated genetic anomalies (these have been known to include sterility, neurological problems/mental problems, and general deformity in almost every species that has ever been extensively line bred, including the old British royals...poking fun UK folk, no malice here... just saying I'm fairly certain one of the Tudors had an extra toe or finger). What this means for the enigma is that eventually the trait would/could have surfaced without so much as a single human intervention, but that is almost impossible to prove without taking every wild leo....everywhere.... and then... subsequently breeding them to tempt fate. What this does mean is that until that happens, the genome project processes every single neucleotide on the gecko's genetics (and their according traits), or someone produces a theory (notice the terminology here) of out-breading the trait (which lucky for us is dominant) that produces 100% testable syndrome-free enigmas there is no way to know whether the inbreeding is to blame.
My second concern is that people claim the trait to be pleiotropic. I do not in any way deny this possibility but will offer several points that have made me hesitant about that fact, but first and foremost among these is the lack of a prior link. The major hallmark of enigma syndrome is the "slowness," "circling," apparent deficiency in vision, and of course the enigma physical features), but as far as I have read, heard, and researched there is an utter lack of any concurrence between the patterns/lack thereof exhibited and the "mental speed" or "balance capabilities" of any one gecko. The only link I have seen or heard of is that of the enigmas and the light sensitivity of the albinos. If I understand correctly, it seems that due to the nature of the circling as opposed to the general albino distaste for and disorientation due to light (which I understand to be two entirely different behaviors; running/walking in circles as opposed to writhing in agony and/or scampering into any shade possible) it seems that these two behaviors cannot be likened easily. When the eye-sight issue is mentioned I see some correlation in that perhaps optically, the enigma operates better in darkness. Now here's where I have little more than to speculate: perhaps the enigma's eyes cannot see in lighted conditions, the same way one is disoriented in the presence of a flash-bang grenade.... It is commonly held that staring into the sun will make you go blind, which it will, this is due to the path the light takes and how the cones and rods in the back of the eye tend to get all burnt out when a laser is sent directly into them. Maybe I'm blowing smoke out my *## but isn't it possible that this generally nocturnal animal might develop a genetic mutation that has become adept at living in nothing but darkness. The circling/disorientation/poor eye-sight may fit in this case, as the symptoms of exposure to excessive light. This has probably been suggested before, I don't know, my attempt at a shot in the dark. "But wait..." you say, "is he suggesting that the traits are linked by the gene?" No... not entirely, I suggest that if these traits are linked, then this is a likely explanation. To return from my hypothetical, tangenital vacation, unless said flight of my fancy is to be taken as fact, then I can find no link between this behavior and its appearance as exemplified in other morphs to support the Peiotropy theory. Unless of course... one is to travel into.... the world of tomorrow! Yes, it is likely (as theorized by some geneticists today) that while a single random genetic mutation changing a single attribute (pattern, size, manna, etc.) will yield only change in that attribute, the sub code (or activation code) may have a parallel mutation or even a dormant mutation, that has occurred of its own accord. This "sub-code" mutation (because I have disabused myself of the correct terminology) only activates its own activation in the presence of a specific allele, even if the allele does not normally exist within the animal's genetic code and must mutate into existence at that spot on that chromosome. If this is the case out-breeding could fix the syndrome, unless the "activation" mutation is dominant (as all alleles are subject to hierarchy). The evidence does not seem to exist to link the pigmentation patterns of a gecko is any more important than the skin pigmentation of a human in determining the mental capacity or neurological problems of said creature. To reiterate, the possibility exists, but other than the exclusively Gay... oh wait... I meant enigma population of the syndrome, the correlation between the syndrome and the enigma gene is greatly weakened. If this were the case, all enigmas would necessarily present the syndrome. While Kelli mentioned something to the effect that all enigmas are a bit slow, it would appear the full syndrome then is the effect of some other part of their constitution exacerbating the otherwise more minor problems. Perhaps, as I mentioned, the light theory is a bit more valid?
Again, I'm new, I only have a baby (a fast grower too) as a pet right now, but I'd encourage anyone breeding out enigmas to follow breeding standards as that is the only way to attempt to prove the genetic validity of a syndrome-less enigma until the super gene charting tech tells us anyway. Yes, I too am not confident about breeding out the ick in this gene-pool, I hope for the enigma, but don't expect miracles, as everything I've written prior to this sentence has forshadowed. It is very possible but seems unlikely.
On a side note, I am sorry if I came off as condescending, I don't mean to at all... it's late, idk why I'm still awake and again, I have yet to finish my essay for class.... any major complaints/questions about my assertions, please let me know (here or PM) I would be quite embarrassed by being thoroughly wrong but that is a small price to pay for truth, please correct me.
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