Anyone not breeding enigmas for 2010?

[T-ReXx]

I will continue to work with them. For me personally, the positives of this morph outweigh the negatives. No matter what you breed, in any animal species, there is a possibility of having to put an animal down. I am comfortable with this and am also very enthusiastic about continued test breeding to help understand the morph fully. I think a big part of this is working with "pure" enigmas, free of other genetic lines("normals") and out crossing to other wild type lines(or subspecies) in order to try to get consistent results. This is going to result in a lot of animals that will have to be euthanized, but I feel the morph deserves the chance to be established as something considered stable and solid genetically. Part of being a breeder is selective breeding, and accepting the bad with the good and being prepared to deal with it. I am willing to accept the challange.

 

[robin]

We have numerous monitor lizards here that will not think twice about eating a few leos that failingl to thrive...

It might not be the most popular way of culling but it is my way... It is very quick, humane, and the culled gecko is not going to waste...

It really is no different than feeding off rodents or any other prey item...

i used to feed any thing that needed to be culled to my gargoyle geckos. i did not have many (geckos that needed to be culled) but i figured why waste.

 

[robin]

I will continue to work with them. For me personally, the positives of this morph outweigh the negatives. No matter what you breed, in any animal species, there is a possibility of having to put an animal down. I am comfortable with this and am also very enthusiastic about continued test breeding to help understand the morph fully. I think a big part of this is working with "pure" enigmas, free of other genetic lines("normals") and out crossing to other wild type lines(or subspecies) in order to try to get consistent results. This is going to result in a lot of animals that will have to be euthanized, but I feel the morph deserves the chance to be established as something considered stable and solid genetically. Part of being a breeder is selective breeding, and accepting the bad with the good and being prepared to deal with it. I am willing to accept the challange.

agreed!

 

[ang3l3s]

We have numerous monitor lizards here that will not think twice about eating a few leos that failingl to thrive...

It might not be the most popular way of culling but it is my way... It is very quick, humane, and the culled gecko is not going to waste...

It really is no different than feeding off rodents or any other prey item...

I got a beardie now and i was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[dprince]

When I've had to put geckos down, what I've done is put them in the refrigerator, so they go into a cold coma, then put them in the freezer. Culling really sucks, but as Kelli and others have mentioned, if someone isn't willing or able to do it, they should really consider if breeding is the right choice for them.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

I was just wondering what tests have been done exactly, a brain scan like CT scan or MRI and were there any fecal/urate analysis done? Thanks in advance!

 

[robin]

I was just wondering what tests have been done exactly, a brain scan like CT scan or MRI and were there any fecal/urate analysis done? Thanks in advance!

i am not sure about CT or MRI but i know they did a full necropsy (which includes a full histopathology)

 

[cassadaga]

I strongly considered stopping my Enigma projects, but I'm giving it another shot. I'm only going to breed one Enigma female this year, though.

 

[lady.gekko]

yes I heard that outcrossing does not lower the number of hatchlings with the syndrome' as well. So in my opinion if you work with enigmas you should be ready to cull any weak ones. This pet-only thing is just a way for people to have a cheap breeding collection. Part of the responsibility of a breeder is upholding some sort of natural selection process so if you believe in pet only animals don't get into enigmas.

I personally buy Leo's as "Pets Only" and don't plan on breeding any of them. I don't have any Enigmas, I'm more of a Bell and Snow person. And speaking honestly, they're not the "cream of the crop" Leos either. But stamping people who purchase "lower quality" pets and saying they'll do it to have a "cheap" collection of breeders, isn't really fair statement to make. I think enigmas are beautiful, but I also don't feel like spending hundreds of dollars for one. So to get one that may still need a home but isn't breedable is ok with someone like me who is just a "collector". I understand not breeding and putting out "problem" reptiles, but not everyone is out there to buy Leo's and make a quick buck. - IE. myself. But will not breed and will take great care of their pets. I think it falls down to finding people you know and trust, who won't try to get the problem reptiles to reproduce.

 

[justindh1]

Ya, that is a great question! What test were actually done? Those test wouldn't really prove to whether they have a problem with the brain working correctly and fireing properly! Only whether they have a deformity of the brain and/or any diseases that have attacked it. It would be good to see if they could actually perform those kind of tests on a live gecko to see how the brain actually functions on enigmas compaired to a non-enigma leopard gecko!

I have know that your going to have to cull some of your hatchlings. I luckly only had to put down one this year out of 26! I grew up on a farm and in that kind of life you realize that sometimes problems during birth, pregnancy, or during its life, that there will be issues that cause you to put a living creature down. It's something that you don't wanna do one bit but you do it because there is no other choice. As all you keep saying if you can't stand the thought then you shouldn't be breeding.

I'm glad this post is back on topic!

 

[KelliH]

There were several tests done, and these tests were done on Enigmas, normal appearing Enigma sibs and completely unrelated normal appearing leos. There were also full necropsies done on all of the geckos.

 

[KelliH]

So in response to your post Justin, the tests were much more than just a necropsy. This is why initially we thought that there was most likely a cerebellum issue, however once the histopath was done (which was the final test!) we were very surprised to see nothing unusual.

 

[Tony C]

What makes you feel that the "Enigma syndrome" can't be bred out?

 

[KelliH]

It's just my gut feeling really.

 

[Ehatcher]

Im breeding for enigmas this year. I hope to have all healthy babies, but it likely wont be.

In time, it would be fantastic if the Enigma "problems" could be bred out. I really wish for them to be, but i feel that the "mutation" that makes up the genetic DNA of the enigma, is the cause of problem. I hope I can be proved wrong

When selling Enigmas you would just have to use the ethical approach. Don't sell animals with known problems that would hinder its ability to thrive.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

What makes you feel that the "Enigma syndrome" can't be bred out?

I also feel that the "syndrome" is not something we can breed out. It is clearly associated with the mutation. The 'syndrome' and the color/pattern enhancement are the same. You cant have one without the other... it is a classic example of pleiotropy.

 

[eric]

Please note, the "syndrome" that's being talked about, is not the norm! Also it'll be a cold day in hell before I stop breeding Enigmas! LOL! To be able to work with a morph enhancer like the Enigma is truly euphoric. And I'm truly sorry for the individuals that have had bad experiences but remember not all Enigma's are misfits! An enigma is a type of riddle generally expressed in metaphorical or allegorical language that requires ingenuity and careful thinking for its solution. HMMMMMMMMMMMMM!

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

I also feel that the "syndrome" is not something we can breed out. It is clearly associated with the mutation. The 'syndrome' and the color/pattern enhancement are the same. You cant have one without the other... it is a classic example of pleiotropy.

+1 I don't know why it's so unfathomable that the same thing that makes them look a certain way would be the gene mutation causing the detrimental behavior. They seem to have thicker skin, an inability to properly store fat in their tails and copper eyes that seem to be a part of their specific gene mutation. To me saying it can be crossed out after what 7 years of unsuccessful outcrosses is like saying you want someone with marfan-syndrome but without the bad symptoms-which you plan to eliminate with out-crossing (not going to work).

What I am hoping for at this point is that it is a mutation that the symptoms can be helped with proper nutrition. "These birds still have the genetic predisposition for a higher than normal requirement for vitamins, trace minerals etc., and if they fall in short supply again, the twirling effect will return." from http://www.ladygouldianfinch.com/features_twirling.mgi\

and "Some have proposed a vitamin/mineral deficiency as a potential cause. If this is the case, improving the diet (particularly B vitamins, vitamin E, and selenium) may help. However, I do not personally know of any cases where diet changes have helped. Some have also suggested a genetic predisposition toward Twirling (perhaps a genetic problem that interferes with absorption of certain vitamins) and recommend not breeding a bird that has ever shown Twirling symptoms." from http://finchfiles.com/FinchFiles/Health/Notes-Twirling.htm

I think that the enigma came from years of improper diet/inbreeding/greed(not culling the weak ones because they look pretty and subsequently breeding them) and resulted in a mutation in absorbing vitamins/minerals properly. Perhaps the B vitamin thiamine as gregg has stated.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

it is not unreasonable to suggest that the enigmas that do not exhibit the symptoms of the trait are only having them suppressed by proper care and husbandry (proper diet, minimal stress). If subjected to stress, even the most "normal" of enigmas will often begin to exhibit the undesired traits. I have seen this first hand at reptile expos.

 

[Wandering Paddle]

that being said, i plan to breed a female enigma this season.