Bio-active substrate!!!

[Gregg M]

For a few years now, we have been using bio-active soils in lizard and snake cages...

The idea behind bio-active substrates is that you will have an entire eco system in your reptiles cage... The benefits from this are awesome... The natural good bacterias, microbes, isopods, substrate mites, and other insects that live in the soil, virtually act as a sanitation crew... Fecal matter can be completely broken down in less than a day... Even uneaten food items get broken down... Some of our cages have had the same substrate for close to 5 years without ever being changed or even spot cleaned... There are not foul oders or even any trace of fecal matter... It works so well that we may turn up a mouse or rat skeleton every once in a while... The uneaten food items get broken down so fast that they never really have a chance to stink so it goes un-noticed...

Creating a bio-active substrate is quite easy... It may involve thing you are not used to hearing like, DO NOT BAKE, CLEAN, DISINFECT, OR WASH ANYTHING... Your friends in natural dirt will take care of all that for you...

My first step is to go to a garden shop and get some organic topsoil... I then head to the beach to get some sand... The I go to the woods to collect leaf compost, branches, logs, dirt and rotten wood/logs... I prefer to take ones filled with isopods, millipedes, centipededs, and wood lice/substrate mites...Then I go to my yard and scoop up some fallen oak leaves...

So at the bottom of the cage we mix some of the sand, dirt, topsoil, and leaf compost together... On top of that we add the rotten wood with all who inhabit it... Then we put more of the dirt mix on top of that and we then add the leaves...

We also add dubia roaches to the cages as well as superworm beetles and larva...

There is never any mold growth or build up of harmful parasites, bacteria, or other protozoa... We have actually had samples tested at the University for free and the soil in the cage is naturally clean...

I am going to be testing these mixes in a rack with a couple of species to see if it will work in a rack system... If all goes as I think it will, my racks will be converted to bio-active substrate...

Here are some pics of our substrate...

Yellow Ackie

Box turtles in brumation bin

Clump of the soil when picked up...

 

[acpart]

I have had similar experience with good smell, rapid breakdown of droppings etc. in my day geckos' cages using eco earth, sphagnum moss and pill bugs from the backyard.

Aliza

 

[Remy]

Very interesting! I would love to do that but I don't have the courage to attempt that just yet. I'd be afraid of getting my gecko sick.

 

[ILoveGeckos14]

Cool its pretty much like composting your animals poop in the cage. Can plants grow in that type of set up?

 

[Tony C]

But loose substrate=instant death! I'm just playing, that's a cool setup. :main_thumbsup:

 

[Enigmatic_Reptiles]

But loose substrate=instant death! I'm just playing, that's a cool setup. :main_thumbsup:

Haha

Gregg, Have you tried that method with smaller reptiles?

 

[latshki]

that is like my crestie setup and i have seen him actually eating the larger fruit flies and such

 

[dprince]

Gregg, I'm so glad you posted pictures of this!!!! I *LOVE* the idea of bioactive substrate. Thanks for the ideas!

 

[OhioGecko]

Really cool Gregg, I look forward to reports on the bin trials.

 

[acpart]

I started using eco earth with the day geckos and crestie only since they are arboreal. I have since kept AFT's on eco earth for the past 2 years with no problems and just re-did my coleonyx tank with it. We'll see how it goes.

Aliza

 

[snakegirl]

i dont get it, why would u want wild bugs in with your animals? why not just make a living cage by using dirt,plants,setting it up, then use a cup with dry ice fill it a little with warm water, it kills off any bugs and gives the plants a huge growth, wouldnt a living vivarium control and handle the changes such as poo and food for itself? i cant see adding Wild insects to a cage with a animal?

you say there is no
mold growth or build up of harmful parasites, bacteria, or other protozoa..

but you add
My first step is to go to a garden shop and get some organic topsoil... I then head to the beach to get some sand... The I go to the woods to collect leaf compost, branches, logs, dirt and rotten wood/logs... I prefer to take ones filled with isopods, millipedes, centipededs, and wood lice/substrate mites...Then I go to my yard and scoop up some fallen oak leaves.......to me doesn't it scream harmful parasites, bacteria its all decaying????

so its dirt, with bugs to eat your reptiles food and poop? your going to sell dirt with bugs in it? Am not sure i understand? :main_huh:

 

[Gregg M]

i dont get it, why would u want wild bugs in with your animals? why not just make a living cage by using dirt,plants,setting it up, then use a cup with dry ice fill it a little with warm water, it kills off any bugs and gives the plants a huge growth, wouldnt a living vivarium control and handle the changes such as poo and food for itself? i cant see adding Wild insects to a cage with a animal?

you say there is no
mold growth or build up of harmful parasites, bacteria, or other protozoa..

but you add
My first step is to go to a garden shop and get some organic topsoil... I then head to the beach to get some sand... The I go to the woods to collect leaf compost, branches, logs, dirt and rotten wood/logs... I prefer to take ones filled with isopods, millipedes, centipededs, and wood lice/substrate mites...Then I go to my yard and scoop up some fallen oak leaves.......to me doesn't it scream harmful parasites, bacteria its all decaying????

so its dirt, with bugs to eat your reptiles food and poop? your going to sell dirt with bugs in it? Am not sure i understand? :main_huh:

Firstly, no one is selling anything here...

Secondly, I explained why myself and many other keepers use live insects in their bio-active substrate... If you do not like the idea of it, by all means, dont do it... Many people are seeing the benefits of it... The insect life and good bacteria break down all traces of fecal matter within a day or two... As soon as it hits the ground the little sanitation crew in the dirt starts to take care of it... Mold will not grow because fungus is a substrate mites favorite thing to eat...

Just wondering why you think this is something that should not be done...

Is this why???

to me doesn't it scream harmful parasites, bacteria its all decaying????

What harmful parasites are you refering to exactly???

What do you think these animals live on in the wild??? Paper towels and bathroom tile??? LOL

If you read my post again, you will see that the substrate in most of my caging has not been changed or cleand in YEARS... Our animals are thriving and free of parasitic overload...

Sorry if I sound a bit short... Its 12 am and I am beat... LOL

 

[snakegirl]

dont take it personal, I dont want to get tangled in some kinda Back and forth battle...For as long as i owned reptiles i always been told never feed or add any Wild insect's to cages (am sure other owners have heard and done the same)

Insects do indeed carry Parasites, not all of them..no. but some do. Along with other things that can harbor in plant life, that's just the way it is, things die and decay,grow mold and gets recycled back in to the earth

your words: What do you think these animals live on in the wild??? Paper towels and bathroom tile???

Of course not, but breeders and owners try to choose the best things for the reptiles the cleanest,healthiest, and try to go extra mile when owning any reptile keeping them from harms way, I cant see why its ok to add wild insects,rotting land matter and unknown insects in the soil, to a cage just to keep it from having to be cleaned by human hands, why is it worth the risk?

from my first post, i said i didn't understand, am only asking you these questions to learn more.......Like i said, many people Build living vivariums with dirt,cleaned logs and such and plants....and if there happens to be any Wild insects or something in the cage, using a cup of warm water and dry ice, Kills any harmful bacteria and gives plant life a wonderful growing boost. Still in fact keeping the reptiles waste and food under control and clean.....if you took that idea and your idea, which is better and why?


your words: my caging has not been changed or cleaned in YEARS... Our animals are thriving and free of parasitic overload...


wouldn't cut it for me, Its a great idea to find something new and clean and healthy for a reptile. taking all the steps and knowing exactly what is in that Substrate is something you should be prepared to handle. i feel like you took my words personal and am sorry if you felt that way. good luck with your Bio-active substrate may all your reptiles have many more clean cages for years to come.

 

[robin]

Just wondering why you think this is something that should not be done...

Is this why???


What harmful parasites are you refering to exactly???

What do you think these animals live on in the wild??? Paper towels and bathroom tile??? LOL

If you read my post again, you will see that the substrate in most of my caging has not been changed or cleand in YEARS... Our animals are thriving and free of parasitic overload...

Sorry if I sound a bit short... Its 12 am and I am beat... LOL

while i understand the concept of this and the possibility it could be good . one thing though is most of these reptiles were not born in the wild. they are captive bred and hatched. they are not born around and into a world with parasites and stuff like that. stuff a wild animal would be accustomed to.

 

[Tony C]

It is common practice in the frog world to use natural soils, collected leaf litter and mosses/plants to seed a tank with microfauna, some species can't be reliably bred in captivity without it. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work just as well for reptiles.

 

[robin]

It is common practice in the frog world to use natural soils, collected leaf litter and mosses/plants to seed a tank with microfauna, some species can't be reliably bred in captivity without it. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work just as well for reptiles.

the problem i am seeing is stuff in the soil in your yard and, mildews, molds and some of the bugs he was talking about like centipedes. i know down here in texas we got some ugly, nasty bugs blah and we have some pretty bad tree diseases and stuff like that (plus you have to worry about ants)

 

[JordanAng420]

Neutral party commentary here. LOL. I Was just wondering if you are ever concerned about pesicides and stuff they use to spray lawns and trees with. I would assume you're positive that no one treats the areas with anything you get your stuff from.

Good luck with your projects Gregg, you've been working hard on a lot of stuff lately!

 

[Tony C]

Yes, for froggers at least, care is taken to collect from areas that are not sprayed with pesticides and fertilizers, and also to avoid areas with large wild amphibian populations to reduce the risk of introducing BD.

 

[Gregg M]

Ok Heather, You and I conversing about the subject is good... I am not taking it personal... Like I said if my answers sound short its because I am a bit tired... Please be patient with me... LOL... I will be quoting you so the answers to your questions and statements are clear... I am not picking your post apart...

Ok, on to the answers...

For as long as i owned reptiles i always been told never feed or add any Wild insect's to cages (am sure other owners have heard and done the same).

For a long time many keepers have done what they thought was the right thing only to find out years later that it may have been ok but it clearly was not the best choice... As this hobby grows, it evolves... The thing is sometimes this evolution means going back to the basics and incorperating the animals natural way of life...

Insects do indeed carry Parasites, not all of them..no. but some do. Along with other things that can harbor in plant life, that's just the way it is, things die and decay,grow mold and gets recycled back in to the earth.

Every living animal carries some sort of parasite... Even parasites have parasites... The best breeders in the world have animals in their collection with internal parasites and never even know it...

The thing about parasites that most people fail to realize is that the greater majority of them are spacific to reptiles, mammals, and insects... This means that if an insect is eaten by a reptile the parasite in the insect will not infect the reptile... Some parasites are even species spacific...

Yes, things die, decay, and get broken down by bacteria and insect life... With these living soils or bio-active substrates, the very same thing is happening in your reptiles cage...

your words: What do you think these animals live on in the wild??? Paper towels and bathroom tile???

Of course not, but breeders and owners try to choose the best things for the reptiles the cleanest,healthiest, and try to go extra mile when owning any reptile keeping them from harms way, I cant see why its ok to add wild insects,rotting land matter and unknown insects in the soil, to a cage just to keep it from having to be cleaned by human hands, why is it worth the risk?

I would think that a system, in which the very cage your reptile is living in, is constantly being cleaned in a natural way rather than exposing them to un-natural substrates and cleaning chemicals, would be better...

People who use bio-active substrates are going the extra mile in order to keep their reptiles clean, healthy and out of harms way... The natural substrate also make these animals feel more at home in an instinctive way as well... This highly reduces stress levels... In turn, this reduces the risk of parasite overloads and other stress related issues...

It has nothing to do with not having to clean a cage by hand anymore... The fact is, the environment with a bio-active substrate is much cleaner and healthier than a cage or bin that is cleaned once a week or whatever...

You say "why is it worth the risk?"

What risk are you talking about??? The fact is, there is no risk... Anyone else using this method will tell you the same...

Like i said, many people Build living vivariums with dirt,cleaned logs and such and plants....and if there happens to be any Wild insects or something in the cage, using a cup of warm water and dry ice, Kills any harmful bacteria and gives plant life a wonderful growing boost. Still in fact keeping the reptiles waste and food under control and clean.....if you took that idea and your idea, which is better and why?.

Ok, you go through the trouble of building a living viv... You clean and disinfect everything... Then you do your dry ice trick to kill insects and "bad bacteria"... What is left to break down fecal matter and uneaten prey items that die??? Along with this so called "bad bacteria" you are killing the good bacteria as well...
I still feel my idea is better... You get better, quicker results with no cost to your reptile... Besides that, try raising monitor lizards in a planted viv... I give the plants 5 minutes before they are all rooted up and destroyed LOL... See how long it takes a medium sized snake to crush plants as they slither around the cage.....

your words: my caging has not been changed or cleaned in YEARS... Our animals are thriving and free of parasitic overload...


wouldn't cut it for me, Its a great idea to find something new and clean and healthy for a reptile. taking all the steps and knowing exactly what is in that Substrate is something you should be prepared to handle. i feel like you took my words personal and am sorry if you felt that way. good luck with your Bio-active substrate may all your reptiles have many more clean cages for years to come.

What would not cut it for you exactly??? The fact that animals that are being kept this way in my collection are thriving or that they come back with clean fecals???

What I do know about my substrate is that there is nothing in there causing any harm or sickness to my reptiles... I have been getting nothing but great results... I do not have to handle what is in my substrate... My substrate handles itself... It does a better job of doing so than any human keeper can do...

Like I said, you do not have to use this type of substrate if it does not sit well with you... No one says you have to...

 

[Gregg M]

one thing though is most of these reptiles were not born in the wild. they are captive bred and hatched. they are not born around and into a world with parasites and stuff like that. stuff a wild animal would be accustomed to.

If that were the case and our CBB animals were not born into a world with parasites, why do so many CBB reptiles have parasite loads??? And actually many reptiles in captivity are born in the wild... While there are lots of CBB animals there are equally (if not, more) as many WC... Besides, are their CBB counterparts immune systems weeker??? I doubt it... And besides all that, what parasites are reptiles getting from soil or insects???

I understand the questioning but most of the questions and statement made in this thread are fear based, not fact based...

For the record, great care is taken to find areas that are not trated with chemicals of any sort...

and some of the bugs he was talking about like centipedes. i know down here in texas we got some ugly, nasty bugs blah and we have some pretty bad tree diseases and stuff like that (plus you have to worry about ants)

Ok, I will give you that Robin... Bugs in Texas are made different than bugs in most places... LOL...

Tree diseases are pretty spacific to trees... What can a reptile catch from a tree??? No need to worry about ants either unless you dig up a colony queen and all...